University of Virginia Library

Saturday September 8th. In Convention

The last Report of the Committee of Eleven (see
Sepr. 4) was resumed.

Mr. King moved to strike out the "exception of

Treaties of peace" from the general clause requiring
two thirds of the Senate for making Treaties

Mr. Wilson wished the requisition of two thirds to
be struck out altogether If the majority cannot be
trusted, it was a proof, as observed by Mr. Ghorum,
that we were not fit for one Society.

A reconsideration of the whole clause was agreed
to.

Mr. Govr. Morris was agst. striking out the "exception
of Treaties of peace" If two thirds of the Senate
should be required for peace, the Legislature will be
unwilling to make war for that reason, on account of
the Fisheries or the Mississippi, the two great objects
of the Union. Besides, if a majority of the Senate
be for peace, and are not allowed to make it, they
will be apt to effect their purpose in the more disagreeable
mode, of negativing the supplies for the
war.

Mr. Williamson remarked that Treaties are to be
made in the branch of the Govt. where there may be
a majority of the States without a majority of the
people. Eight men may be a majority of a quorum,
& should not have the power to decide the conditions
of peace. There would be no danger, that the exposed
States, as S. Carolina or Georgia, would urge
an improper war for the Western Territory.

Mr. Wilson If two thirds are necessary to make
peace, the minority may perpetuate war, against the
sense of the majority.

Mr. Gerry enlarged on the danger of putting the
essential rights of the Union in the hands of so small

a number as a majority of the Senate, representing
perhaps, not one fifth of the people. The Senate will
be corrupted by foreign influence.

Mr. Sherman was agst. leaving the rights established
by the Treaty of peace, to the Senate, &
moved to annex a proviso that no such rights shd. be
ceded without the sanction of the Legislature.

Mr. Govr. Morris seconded the ideas of Mr. Sherman.

Mr. Madison observed that it had been too easy in
the present Congress, to make Treaties altho' nine
States were required for the purpose.

On the question for striking "except Treaties of
peace"

N. H. ay. Mass. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay.
Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo.
ay

Mr. Wilson & Mr. Dayton move to strike out the
clause requiring two thirds of the Senate for making
Treaties; on which,

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. divd. N. J. no. Pa. no.
Del. ay. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo.
no.

Mr. Rutlidge & Mr. Gerry moved that "no Treaty
be made without the consent of 2/3 of all the members
of the Senate"—according to the example in the
present Congs.

Mr. Ghorum. There is a difference in the case, as
the President's consent will also be necessary in the
new Govt.

On the question

N. H. no. Mass. no. (Mr. Gerry ay) Ct. no. N. J.

no. Pa. no. Del no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. ay.
S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Mr. Sherman movd. that no Treaty be made without
a Majority of the whole number of the Senate. Mr.
Gerry seconded him.

Mr. Williamson. This will be less security than 2/3
as now required.

Mr. Sherman. It will be less embarrassing.

On the question, it passed in the negative.

N. H. no. Mass. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. no.
Del. ay. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo.
ay.

Mr. Madison moved that a Quorum of the Senate
consist of 2/3 of all the members.

Mr. Govr. Morris—This will put it in the power of
one man to break up a Quorum.

Mr. Madison. This may happen to any Quorum.

On the Question it passed in the negative

N. H. no. Mass. no. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no.
Del. no. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo.
ay.

Mr. Williamson & Mr. Gerry movd. "that no Treaty
shd. be made witht. previous notice to the members,
& a reasonable time for their attending."

On the Question

All the States no; except N. C. S. C. & Geo. ay.

On a question on clause of the Report of the Come.
of Eleven relating to Treaties by 2/3 of the Senate.
Alt the States were ay—except Pa. N. J. & Geo. no.

Mr. Gerry movd. that "no officer be appd. but to
offices created by the Constitution or by law."—

This was rejected as unnecessary by six no's & five
ays:

The Ayes. Mass. Ct. N. J. N. C. Geo.—Noes.
N. H. Pa. Del. Md. Va. S. C.

The clause referring to the Senate, the trial of impeachments
agst. the President, for Treason & bribery,
was taken up.

Col. Mason. Why is the provision restrained to
Treason & bribery only? Treason as defined in the
Constitution will not reach many great and dangerous
offences. Hastings is not guilty of Treason.
Attempts to subvert the Constitution may not be
Treason as above defined. As bills of attainder
which have saved the British Constitution are forbidden,
it is the more necessary to extend the power
of impeachments. He movd. to add, after "bribery"
"or maladministration." Mr. Gerry seconded him.

Mr. Madison so vague a term will be equivalent
to a tenure during pleasure of the Senate.

Mr. Govr. Morris, it will not be put in force & can
do no harm. An election of every four years will
prevent maladministration.

Col. Mason withdrew "maladministration" & substitutes
"other high crimes & misdemesnors agst. the
State"

On the question thus altered

N. H. ay. Mass. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. no.
Del. no. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay.[62] Geo. ay.

Mr. Madison objected to a trial of the President by
the Senate, especially as he was to be impeached by

the other branch of the Legislature, and for any act
which might be called a misdemesnor. The President
under these circumstances was made improperly
dependent. He would prefer the Supreme Court
for the trial of impeachments, or rather a tribunal of
which that should form a part.

Mr. Govr. Morris thought no other tribunal than the
Senate could be trusted. The supreme Court were
too few in number and might be warped or corrupted.
He was agst. a dependence of the Executive
on the Legislature, considering the Legislative tyranny
the great danger to be apprehended; but
there could be no danger that the Senate would say
untruly on their oaths that the President was guilty
of crimes or facts, especially as in four years he can
be turned out.

Mr. Pinkney disapproved of making the Senate the
Court of impeachments, as rendering the President
too dependent on the Legislature. If he opposes a
favorite law, the two Houses will combine agst. him,
and under the influence of heat and faction throw
him out of office.

Mr. Williamson thought there was more danger of
too much lenity than of too much rigour towards the
President, considering the number of cases in which
the Senate was associated with the President.

Mr. Sherman regarded the Supreme Court as improper
to try the President, because the Judges
would be appointed by him.

On motion of Mr. Madison to strike out the words
—"by the Senate" after the word "conviction"

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. ay.
Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

In the amendment of Col: Mason just agreed to,
the word "State" after the words "misdemeanors
against," was struck out, and the words "United
States," inserted unanimously, in order to remove
ambiguity.

On the question to agree to clause as amended,

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Cont ay N J ay. Pa. no. Del
ay Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On motion "The vice-President and other Civil
officers of the U. S. shall be removed from office on
impeachment and conviction as aforesaid" was added
to the clause on the subject of impeachments.

The clause of the report made on the 5th. Sepr. &
postponed was taken up to wit—"All bills for raising
revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives;
and shall be subject to alterations and amendments
by the Senate. No money shall be drawn
from the Treasury but in consequence of appropriations
made by law."

It was moved to strike out the words "and shall
be subject to alterations and amendments by the
Senate" and insert the words used in the Constitution
of Massachusetts on the same subject—"but
the Senate may propose or concur with amendments
as in other bills" which was agreed too nem: con:

On the question On the first part of the clause—
"All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the
House of Representatives"[63]

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay.
Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay S. C. ay. Geo.
ay.

Mr. Govr. Morris moved to add to clause (3) of the
report made on Sepr. 4. the words "and every
member shall be on oath" which being agreed to,
and a question taken on the clause so amended viz
—"The Senate of the U. S. shall have power to try
all impeachments; but no person shall be convicted
without the concurrence of two thirds of the
members present; and every member shall be on
oath"

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. no.
Del—ay. Md. ay. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay.
Geo. ay.

Mr. Gerry repeated his motion above made on this
day, in the form following: "The Legislature shall
have the sole right of establishing offices not heretofore
provided for" which was again negatived: Mas.
Cont. & Geo. only being ay.

Mr. McHenry observed that the President had not
yet been any where authorized to convene the Senate,
and moved to amend Art X. sect. 2. by striking
out the words "he may convene them (the Legislature)
on extraordinary occasions," & insert, "He may
convene both or either of the Houses on extraordinary
occasions." This he added would also provide
for the case of the Senate being in Session, at
the time of convening the Legislature.

Mr. Wilson said he should vote agst. the motion,
because it implied that the senate might be in Session,

when the Legislature was not, which he thought
improper.

On the question

N. H. ay. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. no.
Del. ay. Md ay. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

A Committee was then appointed by Ballot to
revise the stile of and arrange the articles which
had been agreed to by the House. The committee
consisted of Mr. Johnson, Mr. Hamilton, Mr. Govr.
Morris, Mr. Madison and Mr. King.

Mr. Williamson moved that, previous to this work
of the Committee the clause relating to the number
of the House of Representatives shd. be reconsidered
for the purpose of increasing the number.

Mr. Madison 2ded. the Motion

Mr. Sherman opposed it he thought the provision
on that subject amply sufficient.

Col: Hamilton expressed himself with great earnestness
and anxiety in favor of the motion. He
avowed himself a friend to a vigorous Government,
but would declare at the same time, that he held it
essential that the popular branch of it should be on
a broad foundation. He was Seriously of opinion
that the House of Representatives was on so narrow a
scale as to be really dangerous, and to warrant a
jealousy in the people for their liberties. He remarked
that the connection between the President
& Senate would tend to perpetuate him, by corrupt
influence. It was the more necessary on this account
that a numerous representation in the other
branch of the Legislature should be established.

On the motion of Mr. Williamson to reconsider, it
was negatived[64]

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. ay.
Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo.
no.

Adjd.