University of Virginia Library

Monday Sepr. 3 1787. In Convention

Mr. Govr. Morris moved to amend the Report concerning
the respect to be paid to Acts Records &c of
one State, in other States (see Sepr. 1.) by striking
out "judgments obtained in one State shall have in
another" and to insert the word "thereof" after the
word "effect"

Col: Mason favored the motion, particularly if the
"effect" was to be restrained to judgments & Judicial
proceedings

Mr. Wilson remarked, that if the Legislature were

not allowed to declare the effect the provision would
amount to nothing more than what now takes place
among all Independent Nations.

Docr. Johnson thought the amendment as worded
would authorize the Genl. Legislature to declare the
effect of Legislative acts of one State in another
State.

Mr. Randolph considered it as strengthening the
general objection agst. the plan, that its definition of
the powers of the Government was so loose as to give
it opportunities of usurping all the State powers. He
was for not going farther than the Report, which
enables the Legislature to provide for the effect of
judgments.

On the amendment, as moved by Mr. Govr. Morris

Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Md. no. Va.
no. N. C, ay, S. C. ay. Geo. no.

On motion of Mr. Madison, "ought to" were struck
out, and "shall" inserted; and "shall" between
"Legislature" & "by general laws" struck out, and
"may" inserted, nem: con:

On the question to agree to the report as amended
viz "Full faith & credit shall be given in each State
to the public acts, records & judicial proceedings of
every other State, and the Legislature may by general
laws prescribe the manner in which such acts
records & proceedings shall be proved, and the effect
thereof" Agreed to witht. a count of Sts.

The clause in the Report "To establish uniform
laws on the subject of Bankruptcies" being taken up.

Mr. Sherman observed that Bankruptcies were in

some cases punishable with death by the laws of
England, & He did not chuse to grant a power by
which that might be done here.

Mr. Govr. Morris said this was an extensive & delicate
subject. He would agree to it because he saw
no danger of abuse of the power by the Legislature of
the U. S.

On the question to agree to the clause

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. ay.
Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Mr. Pinkney moved to postpone the Report of the
Committee of Eleven (see Sepr. 1.) in order to take up
the following,

"The members of each House shall be incapable
of holding any office under the U. S. for which they
or any other for their benefit, receive any salary,
fees or emoluments of any kind, and the acceptance
of such office shall vacate their seats respectively."
He was strenuously opposed to an ineligibility of
members to office, and therefore wished to restrain
the proposition to a mere incompatibility. He considered
the eligibility of members of the Legislature
to the honourable offices of Government, as resembling
the policy of the Romans, in making the temple
of virtue the road to the temple of fame.

On this question

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. ay.
Md. no. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

Mr. King moved to insert the word "created" before
the word "during" in the Report of the Committee,
This he said would exclude the members of

the first Legislature under the Constitution, as most
of the offices wd. then be created.

Mr. Williamson 2ded. the motion. He did not see
why members of the Legislature should be ineligible
to vacancies happening during the term of their
election.

Mr. Sherman was for entirely incapacitating members
of the Legislature. He thought their eligibility
to offices would give too much influence to the Executive.
He said the incapacity ought at least to be
extended to cases where salaries should be increased,
as well as created, during the term of the member.
He mentioned also the expedient by which the restriction
could be evaded to wit: an existing officer
might be translated to an office created, and a member
of the Legislature be then put into the office
vacated.

Mr. Govr. Morris contended that the eligibility of
members to office wd. lessen the influence of the Executive.
If they cannot be appointed themselves,
the Executive will appoint their relations & friends,
retaining the service & votes of the members for
his purposes in the Legislature. Whereas the appointment
of the members deprives him of such an
advantage.

Mr. Gerry, thought the eligibility of members
would have the effect of opening batteries agst. good
officers, in order to drive them out & make way for
members of the Legislature.

Mr. Gorham was in favor of the amendment. Without
it we go further than has been done in any of the

States, or indeed any other Country. The experience
of the State Governments where there was no
such ineligibility, proved that it was not necessary;
on the contrary that the eligibility was among the
inducements for fit men to enter into the Legislative
service.

Mr. Randolph was inflexibly fixed against inviting
men into the Legislature by the prospect of being
appointed to offices.

Mr. Baldwin remarked that the example of the
States was not applicable. The Legislatures there
are so numerous that an exclusion of their members
would not leave proper men for offices. The case
would be otherwise in the General Government.

Col: Mason. Instead of excluding merit, the ineligibility
will keep out corruption, by excluding
office-hunters.

Mr. Wilson considered the exclusion of members of
the Legislature as increasing the influence of the
Executive as observed by Mr. Govr. Morris at the
same time that it would diminish, the general energy
of the Government. He said that the legal disqualification
for office would be odious to those who did
not wish for office, but did not wish either to be
marked by so degrading a distinction.

Mr. Pinkney. The first Legislature will be composed
of the ablest men to be found. The States will
select such to put the Government into operation.
Should the Report of the Committee or even the
amendment be agreed to, The great offices, even
those of the Judiciary Department which are to

continue for life, must be filled while those most capable
of filling them will be under a disqualification.

On the question on Mr King's motion

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. ay.
Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

The amendment being thus lost by the equal division
of the States, Mr. Williamson moved to insert
the words" created or the emoluments whereof shall
have been increased" before the word "during" in
the Report of the Committee.

Mr. King 2ded. the motion, & on the question

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. ay.
Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. divided.

The last clause rendering a Seat in the Legislature
& an office incompatible was agreed to nem. con:

The Report as amended & agreed to is as follows.

"The members of each House shall be ineligible to
any Civil office under the authority of the U. States,
created, or the emoluments whereof shall have
been increased during the time for which they shall
respectively be elected—And no person holding any
office under the U. S. shall be a member of either
House during his continuance in office."

Adjourned.