University of Virginia Library

Monday, Augst. 13. In Convention

Art. IV. Sect. 2. reconsidered—

Mr. Wilson & Mr. Randolph moved to strike out
"7 years" and insert "4 years," as the requisite
term of Citizenship to qualify for the House of Reps.
Mr.Wilson said it was very proper the electors should
govern themselves by this consideration; but unnecessary
& improper that the Constitution should
chain them down to it.

Mr. Gerry wished that in future the eligibility might
be confined to Natives. Foreign powers will intermeddle
in our affairs, and spare no expence to influence
them. Persons having foreign attachments

will be sent among us & insinuated into our councils,
in order to be made instruments for their purposes.
Every one knows the vast sums laid out in Europe
for secret services. He was not singular in these
ideas. A great many of the most influential men
in Massts. reasoned in the same manner.

Mr. Williamson moved to insert 9 years instead of
seven. He wished this Country to acquire as fast as
possible national habits. Wealthy emigrants do
more harm by their luxurious examples, than good,
by the money, they bring with them.

Col. Hamilton was in general agst. embarrassing the
Govt. with minute restrictions. There was on one

side the possible danger that had been suggested.
On the other side, the advantage of encouraging foreigners
was obvious & admitted. Persons in Europe
of moderate fortunes will be fond of coming here
where they will be on a level with the first Citizens.
He moved that the section be so altered as to require
merely citizenship & inhabitancy. The right of determining
the rule of naturalization will then leave a
discretion to the Legislature on this subject which
will answer every purpose.

Mr. Madison seconded the motion. He wished to
maintain the character of liberality which had been
professed in all the Constitutions & publications of
America. He wished to invite foreigners of merit
& republican principles among us. America was indebted
to emigration for her settlement & Prosperity.
That part of America which had encouraged
them most had advanced most rapidly in population,
agriculture & the arts. There was a possible danger
he admitted that men with foreign predilections
might obtain appointments but it was by no means
probable that it would happen in any dangerous
degree. For the same reason that they would be
attached to their native Country, our own people
wd. prefer natives of this Country to them. Experience
proved this to be the case. Instances were rare
of a foreigner being elected by the people within any
short space after his coming among us. If bribery
was to be practised by foreign powers, it would not
be attempted among the electors but among the
elected, and among natives having full Confidence

of the people not among strangers who would be
regarded with a jealous eye.

Mr. Wilson cited Pennsylva. as a proof of the advantage
of encouraging emigrations. It was perhaps
the youngest (except Georgia) settlemt. on the
Atlantic; yet it was at least among the foremost in
population & prosperity. He remarked that almost
all the Genl. officers of the Pena. line of the late army
were foreigners. And no complaint had ever been
made against their fidelity or merit. Three of her
deputies to the Convention (Mr. R. Morris, Mr. Fitzsimons
& himself) were also not natives. He had no
objection to Col. Hamiltons motion & would withdraw
the one made by himself.

Mr. Butler was strenuous agst. admitting foreigners
into our public Councils.

Question on Col. Hamilton's Motion

N. H. no. Mass. no. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay
Del. no. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. no. S. C. no
Geo. no.

Question on Mr. Williamson's motion to insert 9
years instead of seven.

N. H. ay. Massts. no. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no.
Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. ay
Geo. ay.

Mr. Wilson renewed the motion for 4 years instead
of 7; & on question

N. H. no. Mass. no. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. no
Del. no. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. no. S. C. no
Geo. no.

Mr. Govr. Morris moved to add to the end of the

section (Art IV. S. 2) a proviso that the limitation of
seven years should not affect the rights of any person
now a Citizen.

Mr. Mercer 2ded. the motion. It was necessary he
said to prevent a disfranchisement of persons who
had become Citizens under and on the faith & according
to the laws & Constitution from being on a level
in all respects with natives.

Mr. Rutlidge. It might as well be said that all
qualifications are disfranchisemts. and that to require
the age of 25 years was a disfranchisement. The
policy of the precaution was as great with regard to
foreigners now Citizens; as to those who are to be
naturalized in future.

Mr. Sherman. The U. States have not invited foreigners
nor pledged their faith that they should enjoy
equal privileges with native Citizens. The Individual
States alone have done this. The former therefore
are at liberty to make any discriminations they
may judge requisite.

Mr. Ghorum. When foreigners are naturalized it
wd. seem as if they stand on an equal footing with
natives. He doubted then the propriety of giving
a retrospective force to the restriction.

Mr.Madison animadverted on the peculiarity of
the doctrine of Mr. Sharman. It was a subtilty by
which every national engagement might be evaded.
By parity of reason, Whenever our public debts, or
foreign treaties become inconvenient nothing more
Would be necessary to relieve us from them, than to
new model the Constitution. It was said that the

U. S. as such have not pledged their faith to the
naturalized foreigners, & therefore are not bound.
Be it so, & that the States alone are bound. Who
are to form the New Constitution by which the condition
of that class of citizens is to be made worse
than the other class? Are not the States ye. Agents?
will they not be the members of it? Did they not
appoint this Convention? Are not they to ratify its
proceedings? Will not the new Constitution be
their Act? If the new Constitution then violates the
faith pledged to any description of people will not
the makers of it, will not the States, be the violaters.
To justify the doctrine it must be said that the
States can get rid of their obligation by revising
the Constitution, though they could not do it by
repealing the law under which foreigners held their
privileges. He considered this a matter of real importance.
It would expose us to the reproaches of
all those who should be affected by it, reproaches
which wd. soon be echoed from the other side of the
Atlantic; and would unnecessarily enlist among the
Adversaries of the reform a very considerable body
of Citizens: We should moreover reduce every State
to the dilemma of rejecting it or of violating the faith
pledged to a part of its Citizens.

Mr. Govr. Morris considered the case of persons
under 25 years, as very different from that of foreigners.
No faith could be pleaded by the former
in bar of the regulation. No assurance had ever
been given that persons under that age should be in
all cases on a level with those above it. But with

regard to foreigners among us, the faith had been
pledged that they should enjoy the privileges of Citizens.
If the restriction as to age had been confined
to natives, & had left foreigners under 25 years,
eligible in this case, the discrimination wd. have been
an equal injustice on the other side.

Mr. Pinkney remarked that the laws of the States
had varied much the terms of naturalization in different
parts of America; and contended that the
U. S. could not be bound to respect them on such
an occasion as the present. It was a sort of recurrence
to first principles.

Col. Mason was struck not like (Mr. Madison) with
the peculiarity, but the propriety of the doctrine of
Mr. Sharman. The States have formed different
qualifications themselves, for enjoying different
rights of citizenship. Greater caution wd. be necessary
in the outset of the Govt. than afterwards. All
the great objects wd. then be provided for. Every
thing would be then set in motion. If persons
among us attached to G. B. should work themselves
into our Councils, a turn might be given to our
affairs & particularly to our Commercial regulations
which might have pernicious consequences. The
Great Houses of British Merchants will spare no
pains to insinuate the instruments of their views into
the Govt.

Mr. Wilson read the clause in the Constitution of
Pena. giving to foreigners after two years residence
all the rights whatsoever of Citizens, Combined it
with the article of Confederation making the Citizens

of one State Citizens of all, inferred the obligation
Pena. was under to maintain the faith thus pledged
to her citizens of foreign birth, and the just complaints
which her failure would authorize: He observed
likewise that the Princes & States of Europe
would avail themselves of such breach of faith to
deter their subjects from emigration to the U. S.

Mr. Mercer enforced the same idea of a breach of
faith.

Mr. Baldwin could not enter into the force of the
arguments agst. extending the disqualification to foreigners
now Citizens. The discrimination of the
place of birth, was not more objectionable than that
of age which all had concurred in the propriety of.

Question on the proviso of Mr. Govr. Morris in
favor of foreigners now Citizens

N. H. no. Mass. no. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay.
Del. no. Maryd. ay. Va. ay. N. C. no. S. C. no.
Geo. no.

Mr. Carrol moved to insert "5 years" instead of
"seven" in Sect. 2d. Art: IV

N. H. no. Mass. no. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. divd.
Del. no. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. no. S. C. no.
Geo. no.

The Section (Art IV. Sec. 2.) as formerly amended
was then agreed to nem. con.

Mr. Wilson moved that (in Art: V. Sect. 3.) 9 years
be reduced to seven, which was disagd. to and the
3d. section (Art. V.) confirmed by the following vote.
N. H. ay. Mass. ay. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. no. Del.
ay. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Art. IV. Sec. 5. being reconsidered.

Mr. Randolph moved that the clause be altered so
as to read—" Bills for raising money for the purpose
of revenue or for appropriating the same shall originate
in the House of Representatives and shall not
be so amended or altered by the Senate as to increase
or diminish the sum to be raised, or change the mode
of levying it, or the object of its appropriation."—
He would not repeat his reasons, but barely remind
the members from the smaller States of the compromise
by which the larger States were entitled to this
privilege.

Col. Mason. This amendment removes all the
objections urged agst. the section as it stood at first.
By specifying purposes of revenue, it obviated the
objection that the section extended to all bills under
which money might incidentally arise. By authorizing
amendments in the Senate it got rid of the
objections that the Senate could not correct errors
of any sort, & that it would introduce into the House
of Reps. the practice of tacking foreign matter to
money bills. These objections being removed, the
arguments in favor of the proposed restraint on the
Senate ought to have their full force. 1. the Senate
did not represent the people, but the States in their
political character. It was improper therefore that
it should tax the people. The reason was the same
agst. their doing it; as it had been agst. Congs. doing it.
Nor was it in any respect necessary in order to cure
the evils of our Republican system. He admitted
that notwithstanding the superiority of the Republican

form over every other, it had its evils. The
chief ones, were the danger of the majority oppressing
the minority, and the mischievous influence of
demagogues. The Genl. Government of itself will
cure them. As the States will not concur at the
same time in their unjust & oppressive plans, the
General Govt. will be able to check & defeat them,
whether they result from the wickedness of the majority,
or from the misguidance of demagogues.
Again, the Senate is not like the H. of Reps. chosen
frequently and obliged to return frequently among
the people. They are to be chosen by the Sts for 6
years, will probably settle themselves at the seat of
Govt. will pursue schemes for their own aggrandisement
—will be able by wearyg. out the H. of Reps. and
taking advantage of their impatience at the close of
a long Session, to extort measures for that purpose.
If they should be paid as he expected would be yet
determined & wished to be so, out of the Natl. Treasury,
they will particularly extort an increase of their
wages. A bare negative was a very different thing
from that of originating bills. The practice in Engld.
was in point. The House of Lords does not represent
nor tax the people, because not elected by the
people. If the Senate can originate, they will in the
recess of the Legislative Sessions, hatch their mischievous
projects, for their own purposes, and have
their money bills ready cut & dried (to use a common
phrase) for the meeting of the H. of Reps. He compared
the case to Poyning's law—and signified that
the House of Reps. might be rendered by degrees like
the Parliament of Paris, the mere depository of the
decrees of the Senate. As to the compromise so
much had passed on that subject that he would say
nothing about it. He did not mean by what he had
said to oppose the permanency of the Senate. On
the contrary he had no repugnance to an increase of
it—nor to allowing it a negative, though the Senate
was not by its present constitution entitled to it.
But in all events he would contend that the purse-strings
should be in the hands of the Representatives
of the people.

Mr. Wilson was himself directly opposed to the
equality of votes granted to the Senate by its present
Constitution. At the same time he wished not to
multiply the vices of the system. He did not mean
to enlarge on a subject which had been so much canvassed,
but would remark that as an insuperable
objection agst. the proposed restriction of money bills
to the H. of Reps. that it would be a source of perpetual
contentions where there was no mediator to
decide them. The Presidt. here could not like the
Executive Magistrate in England interpose by a prorogation,
or dissolution. This restriction had been
found pregnant with altercation in every State where
the Constitution had established it. The House of
Reps. will insert other things in money bills, and by
making them conditions of each other, destroy the
deliberate liberty of the Senate. He stated the case
of a Preamble to a money bill sent up by the House
of Commons in the reign of Queen Anne, to the H. of
Lords, in which the conduct of the displaced Ministry,

who were to be impeached before the Lords, was
condemned; the Com̃ons thus extorting a premature
judgmt. without any hearing of the Parties to be
tried, and the H. of Lords being thus reduced to the
poor & disgraceful expedient of opposing to the authority
of a law, a protest on their Journals agst. its
being drawn into precedent. If there was any thing
like Poynings law in the present case, it was in the
attempt to vest the exclusive right of originating in
the H. of Reps. and so far he was agst. it. He should
be equally so if the right were to be exclusively vested
in the Senate. With regard to the purse strings, it
was to be observed that the purse was to have two
strings, one of which was in the hands of the H. of
Reps. the other in those of the Senate. Both houses
must concur in untying, and of what importance
could it be which untied first, which last. He could
not conceive it to be any objection to the Senate's
preparing the bills, that they would have leisure for
that purpose and would be in the habits of business.
War, Commerce, & Revenue were the great objects of
the Genl. Government. All of them are connected
with money. The restriction in favor of the H. of
Represents. would exclude the Senate from originating
any important bills whatever—

Mr. Gerry considered this as a part of the plan that
would be much scrutinized. Taxation & representation
are strongly associated in the minds of the
people, and they will not agree that any but their
immediate representatives shall meddle with their
purses. In short the acceptance of the plan will

inevitably fail, if the Senate be not restrained from
originating money bills.

Mr. Governr. Morris. All the arguments suppose the
right to originate & to tax, to be exclusively vested
in the Senate.—The effects commented on may be
produced by a Negative only in the Senate. They
can tire out the other House, and extort their concurrence
in favorite measures, as well by withholding
their negative, as by adhering to a bill introduced
by themselves.

Mr. Madison thought If the substitute offered by
Mr.Randolph for the original section is to be adopted
it would be proper to allow the Senate at least so to
amend as to diminish the sums to be raised. Why
should they be restrained from checking the extravagance
of the other House? One of the greatest evils
incident to Republican Govt. was the spirit of contention
& faction. The proposed substitute, which in
some respects lessened the objections agst. the section,
had a contrary effect with respect to this particular.
It laid a foundation for new difficulties and disputes
between the two houses. The word revenue was ambiguous.
In many acts, particularly in the regulation
of trade, the object would be twofold. The
raising of revenue would be one of them. How
could it be determined which was the primary or
predominant one; or whether it was necessary that
revenue shd. be the sole object, in exclusion even of
other incidental effects. When the Contest was first
opened with G. B. their power to regulate trade was
admitted. Their power to raise revenue rejected.

An accurate investigation of the subject afterwards
proved that no line could be drawn between the two
cases. The words amend or alter form an equal
source of doubt & altercation. When an obnoxious
paragraph shall be sent down from the Senate to the
House of Reps., it will be called an origination under
the name of an amendment. The Senate may actually
couch extraneous matter under that name. In
these cases, the question will turn on the degree of
connection between the matter & object of the bill
and the alteration or amendment offered to it. Can
there be a more fruitful source of dispute, or a kind
of dispute more difficult to be settled? His apprehensions
on this point were not conjectural. Disputes
had actually flowed from this source in Virga.
where the Senate can originate no bill. The words,
"so as to increase or diminish the sum to be raised,"
were liable to the same objections. In levying indirect
taxes, which it seemed to be understood were
to form the principal revenue of the new Govt. the
sum to be raised, would be increased or diminished
by a variety of collateral circumstances influencing
the consumption, in general, the consumption of
foreign or of domestic articles—of this or that particular
species of articles and even by the mode of
collection which may be closely connected with the
productiveness of a tax.—The friends of the section
had argued its necessity from the permanency of the
Senate. He could not see how this argumt. applied.
The Senate was not more permanent now than in
the form it bore in the original propositions of Mr.
Randolph and at the time when no objection whatever
was hinted agst. its originating money bills. Or
if in consequence of a loss of the present question, a
proportional vote in the Senate should be reinstated
as has been urged as the indemnification the permanency
of the Senate will remain the same.—If the
right to originate be vested exclusively in the House
of Reps. either the Senate must yield agst. its judgment
to that House, in which case the Utility of the
check will be lost—or the Senate will be inflexible
& the H. of Reps. must adapt its money bill to the
views of the Senate, in which case, the exclusive
right will be of no avail.—As to the Compromise of
which so much had been said, he would make a single
observation. There were 5 States which had opposed
the equality of votes in the Senate, viz, Massts.
Penna. Virga. N. Carolina & South Carola. As a compensation
for the sacrifice extorted from them on
this head, the exclusive origination of money bills in
the other House had been tendered. Of the five
States a majority viz. Penna. Virga. & S. Carola. have
uniformly voted agst. the proposed compensation, on
its own merits, as rendering the plan of Govt. still
more objectionable. Massts. has been divided. N.
Carolina alone has set a value on the compensation,
and voted on that principle. What obligation then
can the small States be under to concur agst. their
judgments in reinstating the section?

Mr. Dickenson. Experience must be our only
guide. Reason may mislead us. It was not Reason
that discovered the singular & admirable mechanism

of the English Constitution. It was not Reason that
discovered or ever could have discovered the odd &
in the eye of those who are governed by reason, the
absurd mode of trial by Jury. Accidents probably
produced these discoveries, and experience has given
a sanction to them. This is then our guide. And
has not experience verified the utility of restraining
money bills to the immediate representatives of the
people. Whence the effect may have proceeded he
could not say: whether from the respect with which
this privilege inspired the other branches of Govt. to
the H. of Com̃ons, or from the turn of thinking it
gave to the people at large with regard to their
rights, but the effect was visible & could not be
doubted—Shall we oppose to this long experience,
the short experience of 11 years which we had ourselves,
on this subject. As to disputes, they could
not be avoided any way. If both Houses should
originate, each would have a different bill to which
it would be attached, and for which it would contend.
—He observed that all the prejudices of the people
would be offended by refusing this exclusive privilege
to the H. of Repress. and these prejudices shd.
never be disregarded by us when no essential purpose
was to be served. When this plan goes forth
it will be attacked by the popular leaders. Aristocracy
will be the watchword; the Shiboleth among
its adversaries. Eight States have inserted in their
Constitutions the exclusive right of originating money
bills in favor of the popular branch of the Legislature.
Most of them however allowed the other branch to
amend. This he thought would be proper for us to
do.

Mr.Randolph regarded this point as of such consequence,
that as he valued the peace of this Country,
he would press the adoption of it. We had numerous
& monstrous difficulties to combat. Surely we
ought not to increase them. When the people behold
in the Senate, the countenance of an aristocracy;
and in the president, the form at least of a
little monarch, will not their alarms be sufficiently
raised without taking from their immediate representatives,
a right which has been so long appropriated
to them.—The Executive will have more
influence over the Senate, than over the H. of Reps.
Allow the Senate to originate in this Case, & that
influence will be sure to mix itself in their deliberations
& plans. The Declaration of War he conceived
ought not to be in the Senate composed of 26 men
only, but rather in the other House. In the other
House ought to be placed the origination of the
means of war. As to Commercial regulations which
may involve revenue, the difficulty may be avoided
by restraining the definition to bills, for the mere or
sole, purpose of raising revenue. The Senate will
be more likely to be corrupt than the H. of Reps.
and should therefore have less to do with money
matters. His principal object however was to prevent
popular objections against the plan, and to
secure its adoption.

Mr. Rutlidge. The friends of this motion are not
consistent in their reasoning. They tell us that we

ought to be guided by the long experience of G. B.
& not our own experience of 11 years; and yet they
themselves propose to depart from it. The H. of
Com̃ons not only have the exclusive right of originating,
but the Lords are not allowed to alter or amend
a money bill. Will not the people say that this restriction
is but a mere tub to the whale. They cannot
but see that it is of no real consequence; and
will be more likely to be displeased with it as an
attempt to bubble them, than to impute it to a
watchfulness over their rights. For his part, he
would prefer giving the exclusive right to the Senate,
if it was to be given exclusively at all. The Senate
being more conversant in business, and having more
leisure, will digest the bills much better, and as they
are to have no effect, till examined & approved by
the H. of Reps. there can be no possible danger.
These clauses in the Constitutions of the States had
been put in through a blind adherence to the British
model. If the work was to be done over now, they
would be omitted. The experiment in S. Carolina,
where the Senate can originate or amend money
bills, has shewn that it answers no good purpose;
and produces the very bad one of continually dividing
& heating the two houses. Sometimes indeed if
the matter of the amendment of the Senate is pleasing
to the other House they wink at the encroachment;
if it be displeasing, then the Constitution
is appealed to. Every Session is distracted by
altercations on this subject. The practice now becoming
frequent is for the Senate not to make
formal amendments; but to send down a schedule
of the alterations which will procure the bill their
assent.

Mr. Carrol. The most ingenious men in Maryd. are
puzzled to define the case of money bills, or explain
the Constitution on that point, tho it seemed to be
worded with all possible plainness & precision. It
is a source of continual difficulty & squabble between
the two houses.

Mr. McHenry[24] mentioned an instance of extraordinary
subterfuge, to get rid of the apparent force of
the Constitution.

On Question on the first part of the motion as to
the exclusive originating of Money bills in the H. of
Reps. N. H. ay. Mass. ay. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa.
no. Del. no. Md. no. Virga. ay. Mr. Blair & Mr.
M. no. Mr.R, Col. Mason and Genl. Washington[25] ay.
N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

Question on Originating by H. of Reps. & amending
by Senate, as reported Art IV. Sect. 5.

N. H. ay. Mass. ay. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no.

Del. no. Md. no. Va.[26] ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no.
Geo. no.

Question on the last clause of Sect. 5, Art: IV—viz
"No money shall be drawn from the Public Treasury,
but in pursuance of appropriations that shall
originate in the House of Reps. It passed in the
negative—

N. H. no. Mas. ay. Con. no. N. J. no. Pa. no.
Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no.
Geo. no.

Adjd.