The writings of James Madison, comprising his public papers and his private correspondence, including numerous letters and documents now for the first time printed. |
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Friday August 24. 1787. In Convention |
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 | The writings of James Madison, |  |
Friday August 24. 1787. In Convention
Governour Livingston, from the Committee of
Eleven, to whom were referred the two remaining
clauses of the 4th. Sect & the 5 & 6 Sect: of the 7th.
Art: delivered in the following Report:
"Strike out so much of the 4th. Sect: as was referred
to the Committee and insert—'The migration or
importation of such persons as the several States now
existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be
prohibited by the Legislature prior to the year 1800,
but a tax or duty may be imposed on such migration
or importation at a rate not exceeding the average
of the duties laid on imports.' "
"The 5 Sect: to remain as in the Report"
"The 6 Sect. to be stricken out"
Mr. Butler, according to notice, moved that clause
1st. sect. 1. of art VII, as to the discharge of debts, be
reconsidered tomorrow. He dwelt on the division
of opinion concerning the domestic debts, and the
different pretensions of the different classes of holders.
Genl. Pinkney 2ded. him.
Mr. Randolph wished for a reconsideration in order
to better the expression, and to provide for the case
of the State debts as is done by Congress.
On the question for reconsidering
N. H. no. Mass: ay. Cont. ay. N. J. ay. Pena.
absent. Del. ay, Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. absent.
S. C. ay. Geo. ay.—and tomorrow assigned for the
reconsideration.
Sect: 2 & 3 of art: IX being taken up,
Mr. Rutlidge said this provision for deciding controversies
the Confederation, but will be rendered unnecessary
by the National Judiciary now to be established,
and moved to strike it out.
Docr. Johnson 2ded. the motion
Mr. Sherman concurred: so did Mr. Dayton.
Mr. Williamson was for postponing instead of
striking out, in order to consider whether this might
not be a good provision, in cases where the Judiciary
were interested or too closely connected with the
parties.
Mr. Ghorum had doubts as to striking out. The
Judges might be connected with the States being
parties—He was inclined to think the mode proposed
in the clause would be more satisfactory than to
refer such cases to the Judiciary.
On the Question for postponing the 2d. & 3d. Section
it passed in the negative
N. H. ay. Massts. no. Cont. no. N. J. no. Pena.
abst. Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C.
no. Geo. ay.
Mr. Wilson urged the striking out, the Judiciary
being a better provision.
On Question for striking out 2 & 3 Sections Art: IX
N. H. ay. Mass. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa.
abst. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. no. S. C.
ay. Geo. no.
Art X. Sect. 1. "The Executive power of the
U. S. shall be vested in a single person. His stile
shall be "The President of the U. S. of America" and
his title shall be "His Excellency." He shall be
his office during the term of seven years; but shall
not be elected a second time.
On the question for vesting the power in a single
person—It was agreed to nem: con: So also on the
stile and title.
Mr. Rutlidge moved to insert "joint" before the
word "ballot," as the most convenient mode of
electing.
Mr. Sherman objected to it as depriving the States
represented in the Senate of the negative intended
them in that house.
Mr. Ghorum said it was wrong to be considering at
every turn whom the Senate would represent. The
public good was the true object to be kept in view.
Great delay and confusion would ensue if the two
Houses shd. vote separately, each having a negative
on the choice of the other.
Mr. Dayton. It might be well for those not to
consider how the Senate was constituted, whose interest
it was to keep it out of sight.—If the amendment
should be agreed to, a joint ballot would in
fact give the appointment to one House. He could
never agree to the clause with such an amendment.
There could be no doubt of the two Houses separately
concurring in the same person for President.
The importance & necessity of the case would ensure
a concurrence.
Mr. Carrol moved to strike out "by the Legislature"
and insert "by the people." Mr. Wilson 2ded.
him & on the question
N. H. no. Massts. no. Cont. no. N. J. no. Pa.
ay. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no.
Geo. no.
Mr. Brearly was opposed to the motion for inserting
the word "joint." The argument that the small
States should not put their hands into the pockets of
the large ones did not apply in this case.
Mr. Wilson urged the reasonableness of giving the
larger States a larger share of the appointment, and
the danger of delay from a disagreement of the two
Houses. He remarked also that the Senate had
peculiar powers balancing the advantage given by a
joint ballot in this case to the other branch of the
Legislature.
Mr. Langdon. This general officer ought to be
elected by the joint & general voice. In N. Hampshire
the mode of separate votes by the two Houses
was productive of great difficulties. The negative
of the Senate would hurt the feelings of the man
elected by the votes of the other branch. He was
for inserting "joint" tho' unfavorable to N. Hampshire
as a small State.
Mr. Wilson remarked that as the President of the
Senate was to be the President of the U. S. that Body
in cases of vacancy might have an interest in throwing
dilatory obstacles in the way, if its separate concurrence
should be required.
Mr. Madison. If the amendment be agreed to the
rule of voting will give to the largest State, compared
with the smallest, an influence as 4 to 1 only,
altho the population is as 10 to 1. This surely cannot
people not for the States. The President of the Senate
also is to be occasionally President of the U. S.
and by his negative alone can make ¾ of the other
branch necessary to the passage of a law. This is
another advantage enjoyed by the Senate.
On the question for inserting "joint," it passed in
the affirmative
N. H. ay. Massts. ay. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. ay.
Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo.
no.
Mr. Dayton then moved to insert, after the word
"Legislatures" the words "each State having one
vote." Mr. Brearly 2ded. him, and on the question it
passed in the negative
N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. no.
Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo.
ay.
Mr. Pinkney moved to insert after the word
"Legislature" the words "to which election a majority
of the votes of the members present shall
be required" & on this question, it passed in the
affirmative
N. H. ay. Mass. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay.
Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo.
ay.
Mr. Read moved "that in case the numbers for the
two highest in votes should be equal, then the President
of the Senate shall have an additional casting
vote," which was disagreed to by a general negative.
Mr. Govr. Morris opposed the election of the President
of rendering the Executive uninterested in maintaining
the rights of his Station, as leading to Legislative
tyranny. If the Legislature have the Executive
dependent on them, they can perpetuate & support
their usurpations by the influence of tax-gatherers
& other officers, by fleets armies &c. Cabal &
corruption are attached to that mode of election: so
also is ineligibility a second time. Hence the Executive
is interested in Courting popularity in the
Legislature by sacrificing his Executive Rights; &
then he can go into that Body, after the expiration
of his Executive office, and enjoy there the fruits of
his policy. To these considerations he added that
rivals would be continually intriguing to oust the
President from his place. To guard against all these
evils he moved that the President "shall be chosen
by Electors to be chosen by the People of the several
States" Mr. Carrol 2ded. him & on the question it
passed in the negative N. H. no. Mass. no. Ct.
ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay.
N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.
Mr. Dayton moved to postpone the consideration
of the two last clauses of Sect. 1. art X. which was
disagreed to without a count of the States.
Mr. Broome moved to refer the two clauses to a
Committee of a member from each State, & on the
question, it failed the States being equally divided
N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. divd. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Del.
ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.
On the question taken on the first part of Mr. Govr.
as an abstract question, it failed the States being
equally divided, N. H. no. Mas. abst. Ct. divd. N.
Jersey ay Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. divd. Va. ay. N.
C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.
The consideration of the remaining clauses of
Sect 1. art X. was then postponed till tomorrow at
the instance of the Deputies of New Jersey.
Sect. 2. Art: X being taken up, the word information
was transposed & inserted after "Legislature"
On motion of Mr. Govr. Morris, "he may" was
struck out, & "and" inserted before "recommend"
in the clause 2d. sect 2d. art: X. in order to make it the
duty of the President to recommend, & thence prevent
umbrage or cavil at his doing it.
Mr. Sherman objected to the sentence "and shall
appoint officers in all cases not otherwise provided
for by this Constitution." He admitted it to be
proper that many officers in the Executive Department
should be so appointed—but contended that
many ought not, as general officers in the army in
time of peace &c. Herein lay the corruption in G.
Britain. If the Executive can model the army, he
may set up an absolute Government; taking advantage
of the close of a war and an army commanded
by his creatures. James 2d. was not obeyed by his
officers because they had been appointed by his predecessors
not by himself. He moved to insert" or
by law" after the word "Constitution."
On motion of Mr. Madison "officers" was struck out
and "to offices" inserted, in order to obviate doubts
creation of the offices by the Legislature.
On the question for inserting "or by law as moved
by Mr. Sherman N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J.
no. Pena. no. Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C.
absent. S. C. no. Geo. no.
Mr. Dickinson moved to strike out the words "and
shall appoint to offices in all cases not otherwise provided
for by this Constitution" and insert—"and
shall appoint to all offices established by this Constitution,
except in cases herein otherwise provided
for, and to all offices which may hereafter be created.
by law."
Mr. Randolph observed that the power of appointments
was a formidable one both in the Executive
& Legislative hands—and suggested whether the
Legislature should not be left at liberty to refer appointments
in some cases, to some State authority.
Mr. Dickenson's motion, it passed in the affirmative
N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa.
ay. Del. no. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. abst. S. C.
no. Geo. ay.
Mr. Dickinson then moved to annex to his last
amendment "except where by law the appointment
shall be vested in the Legislatures or Executives of
the several States." Mr. Randolph 2ded. the motion.
Mr. Wilson. If this be agreed to it will soon be a
standing instruction from the State Legislatures to
pass no law creating offices, unless the appts. be referred
to them.
Mr. Sherman objected to "Legislatures" in the
movers.
Mr. Govt. Morris. This would be putting it in the
power of the States to say, "You shall be viceroys
but we will be viceroys over you"—
The motion was negatived without a Count of the
States—
Ordered unanimously that the order respecting
the adjournment at 4 OClock be repealed, & that in
future the House assemble at 10 OC. & adjourn at
3OC.
Adjourned
| The writings of James Madison, | |