University of Virginia Library

Thursday Sepr. 6. 1787. In Convention

Mr. King and Mr. Gerry moved to insert in the (5)[54]
clause of the Report (see Sepr. 4) after the words
"may be entitled in the Legislature" the words following
—"But no person shall be appointed an elector
who is a member of the Legislature of the U.S. or
who holds any office of profit or trust under the U.
S." which passed nem: con:

Mr. Gerry proposed as the President was to be
elected by the Senate out of the five highest candidates,
that if he should not at the end of his term
be re-elected by a majority of the Electors, and no
other candidate should have a majority, the eventual
election should be made by the Legislature. This
he said would relieve the President from his particular
dependence on the Senate for his continuance in
office.

Mr. King liked the idea, as calculated to satisfy
particular members and promote unanimity & as
likely to operate but seldom.

Mr. Read opposed it, remarking that if individual
members were to be indulged, alterations would be
necessary to satisfy most of them.

Mr. Williamson espoused it as a reasonable precaution
against the undue influence of the Senate.

Mr. Sherman liked the arrangement as it stood,
though he should not be averse to some amendments.
He thought he said that if the Legislature were to
have the eventual appointment instead of the Senate,
it ought to vote in the case by States, in favor
of the small States, as the large States would have
so great an advantage in nominating the candidates.

Mr. Govr. Morris thought favorably of Mr. Gerry's
proposition. It would free the President from being
tempted in naming to offices, to Conform to the will
of the Senate, & thereby virtually give the appointments
to office, to the Senate.

Mr. Wilson said that he had weighed carefully the
report of the Committee for remodelling the constitution
of the Executive; and on combining it with
other parts of the plan, he was obliged to consider
the whole as having a dangerous tendency to aristocracy;
as throwing a dangerous power into the
hands of the Senate. They will have in fact, the
appointment of the President, and through his dependence
on them, the virtual appointment to offices;
among others the Officers of the Judiciary Department.
They are to make Treaties; and they are to

try all impeachments. In allowing them thus to
make the Executive & Judiciary appointments, to
be the Court of impeachments, and to make Treaties
which are to be laws of the land, the Legislative, Executive
& Judiciary powers are all blended in one
branch of the Government. The power of making
Treaties involves the case of subsidies, and here as
an additional evil, foreign influence is to be dreaded.
According to the plan as it now stands, the President
will not be the man of the people as he ought to be,
but the minion of the Senate. He cannot even appoint
a tide-waiter without the Senate. He had
always thought the Senate too numerous a body for
making appointments to office. The Senate, will
moreover in all probability be in constant Session.
They will have high salaries. And with all those
powers, and the President in their interest, they will
depress the other branch of the Legislature, and
aggrandize themselves in proportion. Add to all
this, that the Senate sitting in conclave, can by
holding up to their respective States various and
improbable candidates, contrive so to scatter their
votes, as to bring the appointment of the President
ultimately before themselves. Upon the whole, he
thought the new mode of appointing the President,
with some amendments, a valuable improvement;
but he could never agree to purchase it at the price
of the ensuing parts of the Report, nor befriend a
system of which they make a part.

Mr. Govr. Morris expressed his wonder at the observations
of Mr. Wilson so far as they preferred the

plan in the printed Report to the new modification
of it before the House, and entered into a comparative
view of the two, with an eye to the nature of Mr.
Wilsons objections to the last. By the first the Senate
he observed had a voice in appointing the President
out of all the Citizens of the U.S: by this they
were limited to five candidates previously nominated
to them, with a probability of being barred altogether
by the successful ballot of the Electors. Here surely
was no increase of power. They are now to appoint
Judges nominated to them by the President. Before
they had the appointment without any agency whatever
of the President. Here again was surely no
additional power. If they are to make Treaties as
the plan now stands, the power was the same in the
printed plan. If they are to try impeachments, the
Judges must have been triable by them before.
Wherein then lay the dangerous tendency of the innovations
to establish an aristocracy in the Senate?
As to the appointment of officers, the weight of sentiment
in the House, was opposed to the exercise of
it by the President alone; though it was not the case
with himself. If the Senate would act as was suspected,
in misleading the States into a fallacious disposition
of their votes for a President, they would,
if the appointment were withdrawn wholly from
them, make such representations in their several
States where they have influence, as would favor the
object of their partiality.

Mr. Williamson, replying to Mr. Morris, observed
that the aristocratic complexion proceeds from the

change in the mode of appointing the President
which makes him dependent on the Senate.

Mr. Clymer said that the aristocratic part to which
he could never accede was that in the printed plan,
which gave the Senate the power of appointing to
offices.

Mr. Hamilton said that he had been restrained
from entering into the discussions by his dislike of
the Scheme of Govt. in General; but as he meant to
support the plan to be recommended, as better than
nothing, he wished in this place to offer a few remarks.
He liked the new modification, on the whole, better
than that in the printed Report. In this the President
was a Monster elected for seven years, and
ineligible afterwards; having great powers, in appointments
to office, & continually tempted by this
constitutional disqualification to abuse them in order
to subvert the Government. Although he should
be made re-eligible, still if appointed by the Legislature,
he would be tempted to make use of corrupt
influence to be continued in office. It seemed peculiarly
desirable therefore that some other mode of
election should be devised. Considering the different
views of different States, & the different districts
Northern Middle & Southern, he concurred with
those who thought that the votes would not be concentered,
and that the appointment would consequently
in the present mode devolve on the Senate.
The nomination to offices will give great weight to
the President. Here then is a mutual connexion &
influence, that will perpetuate the President, and

aggrandize both him & the Senate. What is to be
the remedy? He saw none better than to let the
highest number of ballots, whether a majority or
not, appoint the President. What was the objection
to this? Merely that too small a number might appoint.
But as the plan stands, the Senate may take
the candidate having the smallest number of votes,
and make him President.

Mr. Spaight & Mr. Williamson moved to insert
"seven" instead of "four" years for the term of the
President[55] —

On this motion

N. H. ay. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no.
Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo.
no.

Mr. Spaight & Mr. Williamson, then moved to insert
"six," instead of "four" On which motion

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no.
Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo.
no.

On the term "four" all the States were ay, except
N. Carolina, no.

On the question (Clause 4. in the Report) for appointing
President by electors—down to the words,
—"entitled in the Legislature" inclusive

N. H. ay. Mas: ay. Cont. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay.
Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo.—
ay.

It was moved that the Electors meet at the seat
of the Genl. Govt. which passed in the Negative N.
C. only being ay.

It was moved to insert the words "under the seal
of the State" after the word "transmit" in the 4th.
clause of the Report which was disagreed to; as
was another motion to insert the words "and who
shall have given their votes" after the word "appointed"
in the 4th. Clause of the Report as added
yesterday on motion of Mr. Dickinson.

On several motions, the words "in presence of the
Senate and House of Representatives" were inserted
after the word "counted" and the word "immediately"
before the word "choose;" and the words "of
the Electors" after the word "votes."

Mr. Spaight said if the election by Electors is to
be crammed down, he would prefer their meeting
altogether and deciding finally without any reference
to the Senate and moved "that the Electors
meet at the seat of the General Government."

Mr. Williamson 2ded. the motion, on which all the
States were in the negative except N: Carolina.

On motion the words "But the election shall be on
the same day throughout the U. S." were added after
the words "transmitting their votes" N. H. ay.
Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. no. Md.
ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo—ay

On a question on the sentence in clause (4) "if
such number be a majority of that of the Electors
appointed"

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. no.

Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo.
ay.

On a question on the clause referring the eventual
appointment of the President to the Senate

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay.
Del. ay. Va. ay. N. C. no. Here the call ceased.

Mr. Madison made a motion requiring 2/3 at least of
the Senate to be present at the choice of a President.
Mr. Pinkney 2ded. the motion

Mr. Gorham thought it a wrong principle to require
more than a majority in any case. In the
present case it might prevent for a long time any
choice of a President. On the question moved by
Mr. M. and Mr. P.

N. H. ay. Mas. abst. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no.
Del. no. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Mr. Williamson suggested as better than an eventual
choice by the Senate, that this choice should be
made by the Legislature, voting by States and not
per capita.

Mr. Sherman suggested the "House of Reps". as
preferable to the Legislature, and moved accordingly.

To strike out the words "The Senate shall immediately
choose &c." and insert "The House of Representatives
shall immediately choose by ballot one
of them for President, the members from each State
having one vote."

Col: Mason liked the latter mode best as lessening
the aristocratic influence of the Senate.

On the motion of Mr. Sherman

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay.

Del. no. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo.
ay.

Mr. Govr. Morris suggested the idea of providing
that in all cases, the President in office, should not
be one of the five Candidates; but be only re-eligible
in case a majority of the electors should vote for him.
(This was another expedient for rendering the President
independent of the Legislative body for his
continuance in office.)

Mr. Madison remarked that as a majority of members
wd. make a quorum in the H. of Reps. it would
follow from the amendment of Mr. Sherman giving
the election to a majority of States, that the President
might be elected by two States only, Virga. &
Pena. which have 18 members, if these States alone
should be present

On a motion that the eventual election of Presidt.
in case of an equality of the votes of the electors
be referred to the House of Reps.

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. no.
Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Mr. King moved to add to the amendment of Mr.
Sherman "But a quorum for this purpose shall consist
of a member or members from two thirds of the
States," and also of a majority of the whole number
of the House of Representatives."

Col: Mason liked it as obviating the remark of Mr.
Madison—The motion as far as "States" inclusive
was agd. to. On the residue to wit, "and also of a
majority of the whole number of the House of Repss."
it passed in the negative

N. H. no. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay.
Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo.
no.

The Report relating to the appointment of the
Executive stands as amended, as follows.

"He shall hold his office during the term of four
years, and together with the vice-President, chosen
for the same term, be elected in the following manner.

Each State shall appoint in such manner as its
Legislature may direct, a number of electors equal
to the whole number of Senators and members of
the House of Representatives, to which the State
may be entitled in the Legislature:

But no person shall be appointed an Elector who
is a member of the Legislature of the U. S. or who
holds any office of profit or trust under the U. S.

The Electors shall meet in their respective States
and vote by ballot for two persons, of whom one at
least shall not be an inhabitant of the same State
with themselves; and they shall make a list of all
the persons voted for, and of the number of votes for
each, which list they shall sign and certify, and
transmit sealed to the Seat of the General Government,
directed to the President of the Senate.

The President of the Senate shall in the presence
of the Senate and House of Representatives open all
the certificates & the votes shall then be counted.

The person having the greatest number of votes
shall be the President (if such number be a majority
of the whole number of electors appointed) and if

there be more than one who have such majority,
and have an equal number of votes, then the House
of Representatives shall immediately choose by ballot
one of them for President, the Representation
from each State having one vote. But if no person
have a majority, then from the five highest on the
list, the House of Representatives shall in like manner
choose by ballot the President. In the choice
of a President by the House of Representatives, a
Quorum shall consist of a member or members from
two thirds of the States, ([56] and the concurrence of
a majority of all the States shall be necessary to
such choice.)—And in every case after the choice of
the President, the person having the greatest number
of votes of the Electors shall be the vice-president:
But, if there should remain two or more who
have equal votes, the Senate shall choose from them
the vice-President.[57]

The Legislature may determine the time of choosing
the Electors, and of their giving their votes; and
the manner of certifying and transmitting their votes

—But the election shall be on the same day throughout
the U. States."

Adjourned