University of Virginia Library

Wednesday August 22. in Convention.

Art VII sect 4. resumed. Mr. Sherman was for
leaving the clause as it stands. He disapproved of
the slave trade; yet as the States were now possessed
of the right to import slaves, as the public
good did not require it to be taken from them, & as
it was expedient to have as few objections as possible
to the proposed scheme of Government, he
thought it best to leave the matter as we find it. He
observed that the abolition of Slavery seemed to be
going on in the U. S. & that the good sense of the
several States would probably by degrees compleat

it. He urged on the Convention the necessity of
despatching its business.

Col. Mason. This infernal traffic originated in the
avarice of British Merchants. The British Govt. constantly
checked the attempts of Virginia to put a
stop to it. The present question concerns not the
importing States alone but the whole Union. The
evil of having slaves was experienced during the late
war. Had slaves been treated as they might have
been by the Enemy, they would have proved dangerous
instruments in their hands. But their folly
dealt by the slaves, as it did by the Tories. He
mentioned the dangerous insurrections of the slaves
in Greece and Sicily; and the instructions given by
Cromwell to the Commissioners sent to Virginia, to
arm the servants & slaves, in case other means of
obtaining its submission should fail. Maryland &
Virginia he said had already prohibited the importation
of slaves expressly. N. Carolina had done
the same in substance. All this would be in vain, if
S. Carolina & Georgia be at liberty to import. The
Western people are already calling out for slaves
for their new lands, and will fill that Country with
slaves if they can be got thro' S. Carolina & Georgia.
Slavery discourages arts & manufactures. The poor
despise labor when performed by slaves. They prevent
the immigration of Whites, who really enrich
& strengthen a Country. They produce the most
pernicious effect on manners. Every master of
slaves is born a petty tyrant. They bring the judgment
of heaven on a Country. As nations can not

be rewarded or punished in the next world they
must be in this. By an inevitable chain of causes &
effects providence punishes national sins, by national
calamities. He lamented that some of our Eastern
brethren had from a lust of gain embarked in this
nefarious traffic. As to the States being in possession
of the Right to import, this was the case with
many other rights, now to be properly given up. He
held it essential in every point of view that the Genl.
Govt. should have power to prevent the increase of
slavery.

Mr. Elseworth. As he had never owned a slave
could not judge of the effects of slavery on character.
He said however that if it was to be considered in a
moral light we ought to go farther and free those
already in the Country.—As slaves also multiply so
fast in Virginia & Maryland that it is cheaper to
raise than import them, whilst in the sickly rice
swamps foreign supplies are necessary, if we go no
farther than is urged, we shall be unjust towards S.
Carolina & Georgia. Let us not intermeddle. As
population increases, poor laborers will be so plenty
as to render slaves useless. Slavery in time will not
be a speck in our Country. Provision is already
made in Connecticut for abolishing it. And the
abolition has already taken place in Massachusetts.
As to the danger of insurrections from foreign influence,
that will become a motive to kind treatment
of the slaves.

Mr. Pinkney. If slavery be wrong, it is justified
by the example of all the world. He cited the case

of Greece Rome & other antient States; the sanction
given by France England, Holland & other modern
States. In all ages one half of mankind have been
slaves. If the S. States were let alone they will
probably of themselves stop importations. He wd.
himself as a citizen of S. Carolina vote for it. An
attempt to take away the right as proposed will produce
serious objections to the Constitution which he
wished to see adopted.

General Pinkney declared it to be his firm opinion
that if himself & all his colleagues were to sign the
Constitution & use their personal influence, it would
be of no avail towards obtaining the assent of their
Constituents. S. Carolina & Georgia cannot do
without slaves. As to Virginia she will gain by
stopping the importations. Her slaves will rise in
value, & she has more than she wants. It would be
unequal to require S. C. & Georgia to confederate on
such unequal terms. He said the Royal assent before
the Revolution had never been refused to S.
Carolina as to Virginia. He contended that the importation
of slaves would be for the interest of the
whole Union. The more slaves, the more produce
to employ the carrying trade; The more consumption
also, and the more of this, the more revenue for
the common treasury. He admitted it to be reasonable
that slaves should be dutied like other imports,
but should consider a rejection of the clause as an
exclusion of S. Carola. from the Union.

Mr. Baldwin had conceived national objects alone
to be before the Convention, not such as like the

present were of a local nature. Georgia was decided
on this point. That State has always hitherto supposed
a Genl. Governmt. to be the pursuit of the central
States who wished to have a vortex for every
thing—that her distance would preclude her from
equal advantage—& that she could not prudently
purchase it by yielding national powers. From
this it might be understood in what light she would
view an attempt to abridge one of her favorite prerogatives.
If left to herself, she may probably put
a stop to the evil. As one ground for this conjecture,
he took notice of the sect of—which he
said was a respectable class of people, who carried
their ethics beyond the mere equality of men, extending
their humanity to the claims of the whole
animal creation.

Mr. Wilson observed that if S. C. & Georgia were
themselves disposed to get rid of the importation of
slaves in a short time as had been suggested, they
would never refuse to Unite because the importation
might be prohibited. As the section now
stands all articles imported are to be taxed. Slaves
alone are exempt. This is in fact a bounty on that
article.

Mr. Gerry thought we had nothing to do with the
conduct of the States as to Slaves, but ought to be
careful not to give any sanction to it.

Mr. Dickenson considered it as inadmissible on
every principle of honor & safety that the importation
of slaves should be authorized to the States by
the Constitution. The true question was whether

the national happiness would be promoted or impeded
by the importation, and this question ought
to be left to the National Govt. not to the States
particularly interested. If Engd. & France permit
slavery, slaves are at the same time excluded from
both those kingdoms. Greece and Rome were made
unhappy by their slaves. He could not believe that
the Southn. States would refuse to confederate on
the account apprehended; especially as the power
was not likely to be immediately exercised by the
Genl. Government.

Mr. Williamson stated the law of N. Carolina on
the subject, to-wit that it did not directly prohibit
the importation of slaves. It imposed a duty of £5
on each slave imported from Africa, £10 on each
from elsewhere, & £50 on each from a State licensing
manumission. He thought the S. States could not
be members of the Union if the clause shd. be rejected,
and that it was wrong to force any thing down
not absolutely necessary, and which any State must
disagree to.

Mr. King thought the subject should be considered
in a political light only. If two States will not
agree to the Constitution as stated on one side, he
could affirm with equal belief on the other, that
great & equal opposition would be experienced from
the other States. He remarked on the exemption
of slaves from duty whilst every other import was
subjected to it, as an inequality that could not fail
to strike the commercial sagacity of the Northn. &
Middle States.

Mr. Langdon was strenuous for giving the power
to the Genl. Govt. He cd. not with a good conscience
leave it with the States who could then go on with
the traffic, without being restrained by the opinions
here given that they will themselves cease to import
slaves.

Genl. Pinkney thought himself bound to declare
candidly that he did not think S. Carolina would
stop her importations of slaves in any short time,
but only stop them occasionally as she now does.
He moved to commit the clause that slaves might
be made liable to an equal tax with other imports
which he thought right & wch. wd. remove one difficulty
that had been started.

Mr. Rutlidge. If the Convention thinks that N.
C. S. C. & Georgia will ever agree to the plan, unless
their right to import slaves be untouched, the expectation
is vain. The people of those States will
never be such fools as to give up so important an
interest. He was strenuous agst. striking out the
section, and seconded the motion of Genl. Pinkney for
a commitment.

Mr. Govr. Morris wished the whole subject to be
committed including the clauses relating to taxes on
exports & to a navigation act. These things may
form a bargain among the Northern & Southern
States.

Mr. Butler declared that he never would agree to
the power of taxing exports.

Mr. Sherman said it was better to let the S. States
import slaves than to part with them, if they made

that a sine qua non. He was opposed to a tax
on slaves imported as making the matter worse,
because it implied they were property. He acknowledged
that if the power of prohibiting the importation
should be given to the Genl. Government that
it would be exercised. He thought it would be its
duty to exercise the power.

Mr. Read was for the commitment provided the
clause concerning taxes on exports should also be
committed.

Mr. Sherman observed that that clause had been
agreed to & therefore could not be committed.

Mr. Randolph was for committing in order that
some middle ground might, if possible, be found.
He could never agree to the clause as it stands.
He wd. sooner risk the constitution. He dwelt on
the dilemma to which the Convention was exposed.
By agreeing to the clause, it would revolt the
Quakers, the Methodists, and many others in the
States having no slaves. On the other hand, two
States might be lost to the Union. Let us then, he
said, try the chance of a commitment.

On the question for committing the remaining part
of Sect. 4 & 5. of Art: 7. N. H. no. Mass. abst.
Cont. ay N. J. ay Pa. no. Del. no Maryd. ay.
Va. ay. N. C. ay S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Mr. Pinkney & Mr. Langdon moved to commit Sect.
6. as to navigation act by two thirds of each House

Mr. Gorham did not see the propriety of it. Is it
meant to require a greater proportion of votes? He
desired it to be remembered that the Eastern States

had no motive to Union but a commercial one.
They were able to protect themselves. They were
not afraid of external danger, and did not need the
aid of the Southn. States.

Mr. Wilson wished for a commitment in order to
reduce the proportion of votes required.

Mr. Elseworth was for taking the plan as it is.
This widening of opinions has a threatening aspect.
If we do not agree on this middle & moderate ground
he was afraid we should lose two States, with such
others as may be disposed to stand aloof, should
fly into a variety of shapes & directions, and most
probably into several confederations and not without
bloodshed.

On Question for committing 6 Sect. as to navigation
act to a member from each State—N. H. ay. Mas.
ay. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. ay.
Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

The Committee appointed were Mr. Langdon,
King, Johnson, Livingston, Clymer, Dickenson, L.
Martin, Madison, Williamson, C. C. Pinkney, &
Baldwin.

To this committee were referred also the two
clauses above mentioned, of the 4 & 5. Sect: of Art. 7.

Mr. Rutlidge from the Committee to whom were
referred on the 18 & 20th. instant the propositions of
Mr. Madison & Mr. Pinkney made the Report following:[38]

"The committee report, that in their opinion the
following additions should be made to the report
now before the convention, namely,

"At the end of the first clause of the first section
of the seventh article add, 'for payment of the debts
and necessary expenses of the United States; provided
that no law for raising any branch of revenue,
except what may be specially appropriated for the
payment of interest on debts or loans, shall continue
in force for more than—years.'

"At the end of the second clause, second section,
seventh article, add, 'and with Indians, within the
limits of any state, not subject to the laws thereof.'

"At the end of the sixteenth clause of the second
section, seventh article, add, 'and to provide, as may
become necessary, from time to time, for the well
managing and securing the common property and
general interests and welfare of the United States in
such manner as shall not interfere with the governments
of individual states, in matters which respect
only their internal police, or for which their individual
authority may be competent.'

"At the end of the first section, tenth article, add,
'he shall be of the age of thirty-five years, and a
citizen of the United States, and shall have been an
inhabitant thereof for twenty-one years.'

"After the second section of the tenth article, insert
the following as a third section:

"'The President of the United States shall have
a privy council, which shall consist of the president
of the senate, the speaker of the house of representatives,

the chief justice of the supreme court, and
the principal officer in the respective departments
of foreign affairs, domestic affairs, war, marine, and
finance, as such departments of office shall from time
to time be established, whose duty it shall be to
advise him in matters respecting the execution of his
office, which he shall think proper to lay before
them: but their advice shall not conclude him, nor
affect his responsibility for the measures which he
shall adopt.'

"At the end of the second section of the eleventh
article, add, 'the judges of the supreme court shall
be triable by the senate, on impeachment by the
house of representatives.'

"Between the fourth and fifth lines of the third
section of the eleventh article, after the word 'controversies,'
insert, 'between the United States and
an individual state, or the United States and an individual
person.'"

A motion to rescind the order of the House respecting
the hours of meeting & adjourning, was
negatived: Mass: Pa. Del. Mard. ay N. H. Con: N. J.
Va. N. C. S. C. Geo. no.

Mr. Gerry and Mr. Mc.Henry moved to insert after
the 2d. Sect. Art: 7, the clause following, to wit,
"The Legislature shall pass no bill of attainder nor
any ex post facto law."[39]

Mr. Gerry urged the necessity of this prohibition,

which he said was greater in the National than the
State Legislature, because the number of members
in the former being fewer, they were on that account
the more to be feared.

Mr. Govr. Morris thought the precaution as to ex
post facto laws unnecessary; but essential as to bills
of attainder

Mr. Elseworth contended that there was no lawyer,
no civilian who would not say that ex post facto
laws were void of themselves. It cannot then be
necessary to prohibit them.

Mr. Wilson was against inserting any thing in the
Constitution as to ex post facto laws. It will bring
reflextions on the Constitution—and proclaim that
we are ignorant of the first principles of Legislation,
or are constituting a Government that will be so.

The question being divided, The first part of the
motion relating to bills of attainder was agreed to
nem contradicente.

On the second part relating to ex post facto laws—

Mr. Carrol remarked that experience overruled all
other calculations. It had proved that in whatever
light they might be viewed by civilians or others,
the State Legislatures had passed them, and they
had taken effect.

Mr. Wilson. If these prohibitions in the State
Constitutions have no effect, it will be useless to insert
them in this Constitution. Besides, both sides
will agree to the principle, and will differ as to its
application.

Mr. Williamson. Such a prohibitory clause is in

the Constitution of N. Carolina, and tho it has been,
violated, it has done good there & may do good here,
because the Judges can take hold of it.

Docr. Johnson thought the clause unnecessary, and
implying an improper suspicion of the National
Legislature.

Mr. Rutlidge was in favor of the clause.

On the question for inserting the prohibition of
ex post facto laws.

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Cont. no. N. J. no. Pa. no.
Del. ay. Md. ay. Virga. ay N. C. divd. S. C. ay.
Geo. ay.

The report of the committee of 5. made by Mr.
Rutlidge, was taken up and then postponed that
each member might furnish himself with a copy.

The Report of the Committee of Eleven delivered
in & entered on the Journal of the 21st. inst. was then
taken up, and the first clause containing the words
"The Legislature of the U. S. shall have power to
fulfil the engagements which have been entered into
by Congress" being under consideration,

Mr. Elseworth argued that they were unnecessary.
The U. S. heretofore entered into Engagements by
Congs. who were their Agents. They will hereafter
be bound to fulfil them by their new agents.

Mr. Randolph thought such a provision necessary:
for though the U. States will be bound, the new
Govt. will have no authority in the case unless it be
given to them.

Mr. Madison thought it necessary to give the authority
in order to prevent misconstruction. He

mentioned the attempts made by the Debtors to British
subjects to shew that contracts under the old
Government, were dissolved by the Revolution
which destroyed the political identity of the Society.

Mr. Gerry thought it essential that some explicit
provision should be made on this subject, so that no
pretext might remain for getting rid of the public
engagements.

Mr. Govr. Morris moved by way of amendment to
substitute—"The Legislature shall discharge the
debts & fulfil the engagements of the U. States."

It was moved to vary the amendment by striking
out "discharge the debts" & to insert "liquidate the
claims," which being negatived,

The amendment moved by Mr. Govr. Morris was
agreed to all the States being in the affirmative.

It was moved & 2ded. to strike the following words
out of the 2d. clause of the report "and the authority
of training the militia according to the discipline
prescribed by the U. S." Before a question was
taken

The House adjourned.