University of Virginia Library

Saturday August 25. 1787. in Convention

The 1st. clause of 1 Sect. of art: VII being reconsidered

Col. Mason objected to the term "shall"—fullfil
the engagements & discharge the debts &c as too
strong. It may be impossible to comply with it.
The Creditors should be kept in the same plight.
They will in one respect be necessarily and properly
in a better. The Government will be more able to
pay them. The use of the term shall will beget
speculations and increase the pestilent practice of
stock-jobbing. There was a great distinction between
original creditors & those who purchased
fraudulently of the ignorant and distressed. He
did not mean to include those who have bought
Stock in open market. He was sensible of the difficulty
of drawing the line in this case, but he did not

wish to preclude the attempt. Even fair purchasers
at 4. 5. 6. 8 for 1 did not stand on the same footing
with the first Holders, supposing them not to be
blameable. The interest they receive even in paper,
is equal to their purchase money. What he particularly
wished was to leave the door open for buying
up the securities, which he thought would be
precluded by the term "shall" as requiring nominal
payment, & which was not inconsistent with his ideas
of public faith. He was afraid also the word "shall,''
might extend to all the old continental paper.

Mr. Langdon wished to do no more than leave the
Creditors in statu quo.

Mr. Gerry said that for himself he had no interest
in the question being not possessed of more of the
securities than would, by the interest, pay his taxes.
He would observe however that as the public had
received the value of the literal amount, they ought
to pay that value to some body. The frauds on the
soldiers ought to have been foreseen, these poor &
ignorant people could not but part with their securities.
There are other creditors who will part with
any thing rather than be cheated of the capital of
their advances. The interest of the States he observed
was different on this point, some having more,
others less than their proportion of the paper.
Hence the idea of a scale for reducing its value had
arisen. If the public faith would admit, of which
he was not clear, he would not object to a revision of
the debt so far as to compel restitution to the ignorant
& distressed, who have been defrauded. As to

stock-jobbers he saw no reason for the censures
thrown on them. They keep up the value of the
paper. Without them there would be no market.

Mr. Butler said he meant neither to increase nor
diminish the security of the Creditors.

Mr. Randolph moved to postpone the clause in
favor of the following "All debts contracted & engagements
entered into, by or under the authority
of Congs. shall be as valid agst. the U. States under
this constitution as under the Confederation."

Docr. Johnson. The debts are debts of the U. S.
of the great Body of America. Changing the Government
cannot change the obligation of the U. S.
which devolves of course on the new Government.
Nothing was in his opinion necessary to be said. If
any thing, it should be a mere declaration as moved
by Mr. Randolph.

Mr. Govr. Morris, said he never had become a public
Creditor that he might urge with more propriety the
compliance with public faith. He had always done
so and always would, and preferr'd the term "shall"
as the most explicit. As to buying up the debt, the
term "shall" was not inconsistent with it, if provision
be first made for paying the interest: if not,
such an expedient was a mere evasion. He was content
to say nothing as the New Government would
be bound of course, but would prefer the clause with
the term "shall," because it would create many
friends to the plan.

On Mr. Randolph's Motion

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. no.

Del. ay. Maryd. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay.
Geo. ay.

Mr. Sherman thought it necessary to connect with
the clause for laying taxes duties &c an express provision
for the object of the old debts &c—and moved
to add to the 1st. clause of 1st. sect. art VII "for the
payment of said debts and for the defraying the expences
that shall be incurred for the common defence
and general welfare."

The proposition, as being unnecessary was disagreed
to, Connecticut alone, being in the affirmative.

The Report of the Committee of eleven (see friday
the 24th. instant) being taken up,

Genl. Pinkney moved to strike out the words, "the
year eighteen hundred" as the year limiting the importation
of slaves, and to insert the words "the
year eighteen hundred and eight"

Mr. Ghorum 2ded. the motion

Mr. Madison. Twenty years will produce all the
mischief that can be apprehended from the liberty
to import slaves. So long a term will be more dishonourable
to the National character than to say
nothing about it in the Constitution.

On the motion; which passed in the affirmative,
N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. no.
Del. no. Md. ay. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Mr. Govr. Morris was for making the clause read at
once, "the importation of slaves into N. Carolina, S.
Carolina & Georgia shall not be prohibited &c." This
he said would be most fair and would avoid the

ambiguity by which, under the power with regard to
naturalization, the liberty reserved to the States
might be defeated. He wished it to be known also
that this part of the Constitution was a compliance
with those States. If the change of language however
should be objected to by the members from
those States, he should not urge it.

Col: Mason was not against using the term "slaves"
but agst. naming N. C. S. C. & Georgia, lest it should
give offence to the people of those States.

Mr. Sherman liked a description better than the
terms proposed, which had been declined by the old
Congs. & were not pleasing to some people. Mr.
Clymer concurred with Mr. Sherman

Mr. Williamson said that both in opinion & practice
he was against slavery; but thought it more in
favor of humanity, from a view of all circumstances,
to let in S. C & Georgia on those terms, than to exclude
them from the Union.

Mr. Govr. Morris withdrew his motion.

Mr. Dickenson wished the clause to be confined to
the States which had not themselves prohibited the
importation of slaves, and for that purpose moved
to amend the clause so as to read "The importation
of slaves into such of the States as shall permit the
same shall not be prohibited by the Legislature of
the U. S. until the year 1808"—which was disagreed
to nem: con:[42]

The first part of the report was then agreed to,

amended as follows. "The migration or importation
of such persons as the several States now existing
shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited
by the Legislature prior to the year 1808." N. H.
Mas. Con. Md.. N. C. S. C. Geo: ay. N. J. Pa. Del. Virga.
no

Mr. Baldwin in order to restrain & more explicitly
define "the average duty" moved to strike out of
the 2d. part the words "average of the duties laid on
imports" and insert "common impost on articles
not enumerated" which was agreed to nern: cont:

Mr. Sherman was agst. this 2d. part, as acknowledging
men to be property, by taxing them as
such under the character of slaves.

Mr. King & Mr. Langdon considered this as the
price of the 1st. part.

Genl. Pinkney admitted that it was so.

Col: Mason. Not to tax, will be equivalent to a
bounty on the importation of slaves.

Mr. Ghorum thought that Mr. Sherman should consider
the duty, not as implying that slaves are property,
but as a discouragement to the importation of
them.

Mr. Govr. Morris remarked that as the clause now
stands it implies that the Legislature may tax freemen
imported.

Mr. Sherman in answer to Mr. Ghorum observed
that the smallness of the duty shewed revenue to be
the object, not the discouragement of the importation.

Mr. Madison thought it wrong to admit in the

Constitution the idea that there could be property in
men. The reason of duties did not hold, as slaves
are not like merchandize, consumed, &c

Col. Mason (in answr. to Govr. Morris) the provision
as it stands was necessary for the case of convicts
in order to prevent the introduction of them.

It was finally agreed nem. contrad: to make the
clause read "but a tax or duty may be imposed on
such importation not exceeding ten dollars for each
person," and then the 2d. part as amended was agreed
to.

Sect 5. art. VII was agreed to nem: con: as reported.

Sect. 6. art. VII. in the Report, was postponed.

On motion of Mr. Madison 2ded. by Mr. Govr. Morris
Article VIII was reconsidered and after the words
"all treaties made," were inserted nem: con: the
words" or which shall be made." This insertion was
meant to obviate all doubt concerning the force of
treaties preexisting, by making the words "all
treaties made" to refer to them, as the words inserted
would refer to future treaties.

Mr. Carrol and Mr. L. Martin expressed their apprehensions,
and the probable apprehensions of
their constituents, that under the power of regulating
trade the General Legislature, might favor the
ports of particular States, by requiring vessels destined
to or from other States to enter & clear thereat,
as vessels belonging or bound to Baltimore, to enter
& clear at Norfolk &c. They moved the following
proposition

"The Legislature of the U. S. shall not oblige vessels
belonging to citizens thereof, or to foreigners, to
enter or pay duties or imposts in any other State
than in that to which they may be bound, or to
clear out in any other than the State in which their
cargoes may be laden on board; nor shall any privilege
or immunity be granted to any vessel on entering
or clearing out, or paying duties or imposts in
one State in preference to another"

Mr. Ghorum thought such a precaution unnecessary;
& that the revenue might be defeated, if vessels
could run up long rivers, through the jurisdiction
of different States without being required to
enter, with the opportunity of landing & selling
their cargoes by the way.

Mr. Mc.Henry & Genl. Pinkney made the following
propositions

"Should it be judged expedient by the Legislature
of the U. S. that one or more port for collecting duties
or imposts other than those ports of entrance & clearance
already established by the respective States,
should be established, the Legislature of the U. S. shall
signify the same to the Executives of the respective
States, ascertaining the number of such ports judged
necessary; to be laid by the said Executives before
the Legislatures of the States at their next session;
and the Legislature of the U. S. shall not have the
power of fixing or establishing the particular ports
for collecting duties or imposts in any State, except
the Legislature of such State shall neglect to fix and
establish the same during their first session to be

held after such notification by the Legislature of the
U. S. to the Executive of such State"

"All duties imposts & excises, prohibitions or restraints
laid or made by the Legislature of the U. S.
shall be uniform & equal throughout the U. S."

These several propositions were referred nem:
con: to a committee composed of a member from
each State. The committee appointed by ballot
were Mr. Langdon, Mr. Ghorum, Mr. Sherman, Mr.
Dayton, Mr. Fitzimmons, Mr. Read, Mr. Carrol, Mr.
Mason, Mr. Williamson, Mr. Butler, Mr. Few.

On the question now taken on Mr. Dickinson's motion
of yesterday, allowing appointments to offices,
to be referred by the Genl. Legislature to the Executives
of the several States as a further amendment
to sect. 2. art. X, the votes were N. H. no Mas. no.
Ct. ay. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. divided. Va. ay. N.
C. no. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

In amendment of the same section, "other public
Ministers" were inserted after "ambassadors."

Mr. Govr. Morris moved to strike out of the section
—"and may correspond with the supreme Executives
of the several States" as unnecessary and implying
that he could not correspond with others. Mr.
Broome 2ded. him.

On the question

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay.
Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

"Shall receive ambassadors & other public Ministers,"
agreed to, nem. con.

Mr. Sherman moved to amend the "power to grant

reprieves & pardon" so as to read "to grant reprieves
until the ensuing session of the Senate, and
pardons with consent of the Senate."

On the question

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. ay. Pa. no. Md. no. Va.
no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

"except in cases of impeachment" inserted nem.
con: after "pardon"

On the question to agree to—"but his pardon
shall not be pleadable in bar"

N. H. ay. Mas. no. Ct. no. Pa. no. Del. no.
Md. ay. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

Adjourned