University of Virginia Library

Thursday August 30th. 1787. In Convention

Art XVII resumed for a question on it as amended
by Mr. Govr. Morris's substitutes

Mr. Carrol moved to strike out so much of the article
as requires the consent of the State to its being
divided. He was aware that the object of this prerequisite
might be to prevent domestic disturbances;
but such was our situation with regard to the Grown
lands, and the sentiments of Maryland on that subject,
that he perceived we should again be at sea, if
no guard was provided for the right of the U. States
to the back lands. He suggested that it might be
proper to provide that nothing in the Constitution
should affect the Right of the U. S. to lands ceded by
G. Britain in the Treaty of peace, and proposed a
committment to a member from each State. He
assured the House that this was a point of a most
serious nature. It was desirable above all things
that the act of the Convention might be agreed to
unanimously. But should this point be disregarded,

he believed that all risks would be run by a considerable
minority, sooner than give their concurrence.

Mr. L. Martin 2ded. the motion for a commitment.

Mr. Rutlidge is it to be supposed that the States
are to be cut up without their own consent. The
case of Vermont will probably be particularly provided
for. There could be no room to fear, that
Virginia or N. Carolina would call on the U. States
to maintain their Government over the Mountains.

Mr. Williamson said that N. Carolina was well disposed
to give up her western lands, but attempts at
compulsion was not the policy of the U. S. He was
for doing nothing in the constitution in the present
case, and for leaving the whole matter in Statu quo.

Mr. Wilson was against the commitment. Unanimity
was of great importance, but not to be purchased
by the majority's yielding to the minority.
He should have no objection to leaving the case of
the new States as heretofore. He knew nothing
that would give greater or juster alarm than the
doctrine, that a political society is to be torn assunder
without its own consent.

On Mr. Carrol's motion for commitment

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. no.
Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo.
no.

Mr. Sherman moved to postpone the substitute for
Art: XVII agreed to yesterday in order to take up
the following amendment

"The Legislature shall have power to admit other
States into the Union, and new States to be formed

by the division or junction of States now in the
Union, with the consent of the Legislature of such
States." (The first part was meant for the case of
Vermont to secure its admission.)

On the question, it passed in the negative

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay.
Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo.
no.

Docr. Johnson moved to insert the words "hereafter
formed or" after the words "shall be" in the
substitute for Art: XVII (the more clearly to save
Vermont as being already formed into a State, from
a dependence on the consent of N. York for her admission.
The motion was agreed to Del. & Md.
only dissenting.

Mr. Govr. Morris moved to strike out the word
"limits" in the substitute, and insert the word "jurisdiction"
(This also was meant to guard the case of
Vermont, the jurisdiction of N. York not extending
over Vermont which was in the exercise of sovereignty,
tho' Vermont was within the asserted limits
of New York.)

On this question

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay.
Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo.
no.

Mr. L. Martin urged the unreasonableness of forcing
& guaranteeing the people of Virginia beyond the
Mountains, the Western people of N. Carolina & of
Georgia, & the people of Maine, to continue under
ihe States now governing them, without the consent

of those States to their separation. Even if they
should become the majority, the majority of Counties,
as in Virginia may still hold fast the dominion over
them. Again the majority may place the seat of
Government entirely among themselves & for their
own conveniency, and still keep the injured parts
of the States in subjection, under the guarantee of
the Genl. Government agst. domestic violence. He
wished Mr. Wilson had thought a little sooner of the
value of political bodies. In the beginning, when the
rights of the small States were in question, they were
phantoms, ideal beings. Now when the Great States
were to be affected, political societies were of a
sacred nature. He repeated and enlarged on the
unreasonableness of requiring the small States to
guarantee the Western claims of the large ones.—It
was said yesterday by Mr. Govr. Morris, that if the
large States were to be split to pieces without their
consent, their representatives here would take their
leave. If the Small States are to be required to
guarantee them in this manner, it will be found that
the Representatives of other States will with equal
firmness take their leave of the Constitution on the
table.

It was moved by Mr. L. Martin to postpone the
substituted article, in order to take up the following.

"The Legislature of the U. S. shall have power to
erect New States within as well as without the territory
claimed by the several States or either of them,
and admit the same into the Union: provided that
nothing in this Constitution shall be construed to

affect the claim of the U. S. to vacant lands ceded to
them by the late treaty of peace, which passed in the
negative: N. J. Del. & Md. only ay.

On the question to agree to Mr. Govr. Morris's substituted
article as amended in the words following.

"New States may be admitted by the Legislature
into the Union: but no new State shall be hereafter
formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any of
the present States without the consent of the Legislature
of such State as well as of the General Legislature"

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay.
Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo.
ay.

Mr. Dickinson moved to add the following clause
to the last—

"Nor shall any State be formed by the junction of
two or more States or parts thereof, without the
consent of the Legislature of such States, as well as
of the Legislature of the U. States," which was agreed
to without a count of the votes.

Mr. Carrol moved to add—"Provided nevertheless
that nothing in this Constitution shall be construed
to affect the claim of the U. S. to vacant lands ceded
to them by the Treaty of peace." This he said
might be understood as relating to lands not claimed
by any particular States, but he had in view also
some of the claims of particular States.

Mr. Wilson was agst. the motion. There was nothing
in the Constitution affecting one way or the
Other the claims of the U. S. & it was best to insert

nothing, leaving every thing on that litigated subject
in statu quo.

Mr. Madison considered the claim of the U. S. as in
fact favored by the jurisdiction of the Judicial power
of the U. S. over controversies to which they should
be parties. He thought it best on the whole to be
silent on the subject. He did not view the proviso
of Mr. Carrol as dangerous; but to make it neutral
& fair, it ought to go further & declare that the
claims of particular States also should not be affected.

Mr. Sherman thought the proviso harmless, especially
with the addition suggested by Mr. Madison in
favor of the claims of particular States.

Mr. Baldwin did not wish any undue advantage to
be given to Georgia. He thought the proviso proper
with the addition proposed. It should be remembered
that if Georgia has gained much by the cession
in the Treaty of peace, she was in danger during
the war of a Uti possidetis.

Mr. Rutlidge thought it wrong to insert a proviso
where there was nothing which it could restrain, or
on which it could operate.

Mr. Carrol withdrew his motion and moved the
following.

"Nothing in this Constitution shall be construed
to alter the claims of the U. S. or of the individual
States to the Western territory, but all such claims
shall be examined into & decided upon, by the Supreme
Court of the U. States."

Mr. Govr. Morris moved to postpone this in order to
take up the following.

"The Legislature shall have power to dispose of
and make all needful rules and regulations respecting
the territory or other property belonging to the
U. States; and nothing in this constitution contained,
shall be so construed as to prejudice any
claims either of the U. S. or of any particular State."

—The postponemt. agd. to nem. con.

Mr. L. Martin moved to amend the proposition of
Mr. Govr. Morris by adding—" But all such claims
may be examined into & decided upon by the supreme
Court of the U. States."

Mr. Govr. Morris. this is unnecessary, as all suits
to which the U. S. are parties, are already to be decided
by the Supreme Court.

Mr. L. Martin. it is proper in order to remove all
doubts on this point.

Question on Mr. L. Martin's amendatory motion

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. no.
Del. no. Md. ay. Va. no—States not farther called
the negatives being sufficient & the point given
up.

The Motion of Mr. Govr. Morris was then agreed to,
Md. alone dissenting.

Art: XVIII being taken up,—the word "foreign"
was struck out nem: con: as superfluous, being implied
in the term "invasion."

Mr. Dickinson moved to strike out "on the application
of its Legislature, against" He thought it of
essential importance to the tranquility of the U. S.
that they should in all cases suppress domestic violence,
which may proceed from the State Legislature

itself, or from disputes between the two branches
where such exist.

Mr. Dayton mentioned the Conduct of Rho: Island
as shewing the necessity of giving latitude to the
power of the U. S. on this subject.

On the question

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. ay.
Del. ay. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On a question for striking out "domestic violence"
and insertg. "insurrections—" It passed in the negative.

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. no.
Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo.
ay.

Mr. Dickinson moved to insert the words, "or Executive"
after the words "application of its Legislature."
—The occasion itself he remarked might hinder
the Legislature from meeting.

On this question

N. H. ay. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay.
Del. ay. Md. divd. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay.
Geo. ay.

Mr. L. Martin moved to subjoin to the last amendment
the words "in the recess of the Legislature"
On which question

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. Pa. no. Del. no.
Md. ay. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On Question on the last clause as amended

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay.
Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo
ay.

Art: XIX taken up.

Mr. Govr. Morris suggested that the Legislature
should be left at liberty to call a Convention, whenever
they please.

The Art: was agreed to nem: con:

Art: XX. taken up.—"or affirmation" was added
after "oath."

Mr. Pinkney moved to add to the Art:—"but no
religious test shall ever be required as a qualification
to any office or public trust under the authority of
the U. States"

Mr. Sherman thought it unnecessary, the prevailing
liberality being a sufficient security agst. such tests.

Mr. Govr. Morris & Genl. Pinkney approved the
motion.

The motion was agreed to nem: con: and then the
whole Article; N. C. only no—and Md. divided

Art: XXI. taken up, viz: "The ratifications of the
Conventions of—States shall be sufficient for organizing
this Constitution."

Mr. Wilson proposed to fill the blank with "seven"
that being a majority of the whole number & sufficient
for the commencement of the plan.

Mr. Carrol moved to postpone the article in order to
take up the Report of the Committee of Eleven (see
Tuesday Augst. 28)—and on the question

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. no.
Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

Mr. Govr. Morris thought the blank ought to be
filled in a twofold way, so as to provide for the event
of the ratifying States being contiguous which would

render a smaller number suificient, and the event of
their being dispersed, which wd. require a greater
number for the introduction of the Government.

Mr. Sherman observed that the States being now
confederated by articles which require unanimity in
changes, he thought the ratification in this case of
ten States at least ought to be made necessary.

Mr. Randolph was for filling the blank with "nine"
that being a respectable majority of the whole, and
being a number made familiar by the constitution of
the existing Congress.

Mr. Wilson mentioned "eight" as preferable.

Mr. Dickinson asked whether the concurrence of
Congress is to be essential to the establishment of
the system, whether the refusing States in the Confederacy
could be deserted—and whether Congress
could concur in contravening the system under
which they acted?

Mr. Madison, remarked that if the blank should be
filled with "seven" "eight," or "nine," the Constitution
as it stands might be put in force over the
whole body of the people, tho' less than a majority of
them should ratify it.

Mr. Wilson. As the Constitution stands, the States
only which ratify can be bound. We must he said
in this case go to the original powers of Society.
The House on fire must be extinguished, without a
scrupulous regard to ordinary rights.

Mr. Butler was in favor of "nine." He revolted at
the idea, that one or two States should restrain the
rest from consulting their safety.

Mr. Carrol moved to fill the blank with "the thirteen,"
unanimity being necessary to dissolve the
existing confederacy which had been unanimously
established.

Mr. King thought this amendt. necessary, otherwise
as the Constitution now stands it will operate on the
whole though ratified by a part only. Adjourned.