University of Virginia Library

Thursday, Augst. 9. in Convention

Art: IV. Sect. 6. Mr. Randolph expressed his dissatisfaction
at the disagreement yesterday to Sect.
5. concerning money bills, as endangering the success
of the plan, and extremely objectionable in
itself; and gave notice that he should move for a
reconsideration of the vote.

Mr. Williamson said he had formed a like intention.

Mr. Wilson, gave notice that he shd. move to reconsider
the vote, requiring seven instead of three years
of Citizenship as a qualification of candidates for the
House of Representatives.

Art. IV. Sec. 6. & 7. Agreed to nem. con.

Art. V. Sect. 1. taken up.

Mr. Wilson objected to vacancies in the Senate
being supplied by the Executives of the States. It
was unnecessary as the Legislatures will meet so frequently.
It removes the appointment too far from
the people; the Executives in most of the States
being elected by the Legislatures. As he had always
thought the appointment of the Executives by the

Legislative department wrong; so it was still more so
that the Executive should elect into the Legislative
department.

Mr. Randolph thought it necessary in order to prevent
inconvenient chasms in the Senate. In some
States the Legislatures meet but once a year. As the
Senate will have more power & consist of a smaller
number than the other House, vacancies there will
be of more consequence. The Executives might be
safely trusted he thought with the appointment for
so short a time.

Mr. Elseworth. It is only said that the Executive
may supply vacancies. When the Legislative meeting
happens to be near, the power will not be exerted.
As there will be but two members from a State
vacancies may be of great moment.

Mr. Williamson. Senators may resign or not accept.
This provision is therefore absolutely necessary.

On the question for striking out "vacancies shall
be supplied by the Executives

N. H. no. Mass. no. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. ay.
Md. divd. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

Mr. Williamson moved to insert after "vacancies
shall be supplied by the Executives," the following
words "unless other provision shall be made by the
Legislature" (of the State).

Mr. Elseworth. He was willing to trust the Legislature,
or the Executive of a State, but not to give
the former a discretion to refer appointments for
the Senate to whom they pleased.

Question on Mr. Williamson's motion

N. H. no. Mass. no. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no.
Md. ay. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Mr. Madison in order to prevent doubts whether
resignations could be made by Senators, or whether
they could refuse to accept, moved to strike out
the words after "vacancies," & insert the words
"happening by refusals to accept, resignations or
otherwise, may be supplied by the Legislature of the
State in the representation of which such vacancies
shall happen, or by the Executive thereof until the
next meeting of the Legislature"

Mr. Govr. Morris this is absolutely necessary, otherwise,
as members chosen into the Senate are disqualified
from being appointed to any office by Sect.
9. of this art: it will be in the power of a Legislature
by appointing a man a Senator agst. his consent, to
deprive the U. S. of his services.

The motion of Mr. Madison was agreed to nem. con.

Mr. Randolph called for division of the Section,
so as to leave a distinct question on the last words
"each member shall have one vote." He wished
this last sentence to be postponed until the reconsideration
should have taken place on Sect. 5. Art.
IV. concerning money bills. If that section should
not be reinstated his plan would be to vary the representation
in the Senate.

Mr. Strong concurred in Mr. Randolph's ideas on
this point.

Mr. Read did not consider the section as to money
bills of any advantage to the larger States and had

voted for striking it out as being viewed in the same
light by the larger States. If it was considered by
them as of any value, and as a condition of the
equality of votes in the Senate, he had no objection
to its being re-instated.

Mr. Wilson—Mr. Elseworth & Mr. Madison urged
that it was of no advantage to the larger States, and
that it might be a dangerous source of contention
between the two Houses. All the principal powers
of the Natl. Legislature had some relation to money.

Docr. Franklin, considered the two clauses, the
originating of money bills, and the equality of votes
in the Senate, as essentially connected by the compromise
which had been agreed to.

Col. Mason said this was not the time for discussing
this point. When the originating of money bills
shall be reconsidered, he thought it could be demonstrated
that it was of essential importance to restrain
the right to the House of Representatives the immediate
choice of the people.

Mr. Williamson. The State of N. C. had agreed to
an equality in the Senate, merely in consideration
that money bills should be confined to the other
House: and he was surprised to see the smaller
States forsaking the condition on which they had
received their equality.

Question on the section 1. down to the last sentence

N. H. ay. Mass. no. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa.[19] no.

Del. ay. Md. ay. Virga. ay. N. C. no. S. C. divd.
Geo. ay.

Mr. Randolph moved that the last sentence "each
member shall have one vote," be postponed.

It was observed that this could not be necessary;
as in case the sanction as to originating money bills
should not be reinstated, and a revision of the Constitution
should ensue, it wd. still be proper that
the members should vote per Capita. A postponement
of the preceding sentence allowing to each
State 2 members wd. have been more proper

Mr. Mason, did not mean to propose a change of
this mode of voting per capita in any event. But
as there might be other modes proposed, he saw no
impropriety in postponing the sentence. Each State
may have two members, and yet may have unequal
votes. He said that unless the exclusive originating
of money bills should be restored to the House of
Representatives, he should, not from obstinacy but
duty and conscience, oppose throughout the equality
of Representation in the Senate.

Mr. Govr. Morris. Such declarations were he supposed,
addressed to the smaller States in order to
alarm them for their equality in the Senate, and induce
them agst. their judgments, to concur in restoring
the section concerning money bills. He would
declare in his turn that as he saw no prospect of
amending the Constitution of the Senate & considered
the section relating to money bills as intrinsically
bad, he would adhere to the section establishing
the equality at all events.

Mr. Wilson. It seems to have been supposed by
some that the section concerning money bills is desirable
to the large States. The fact was that two of
those States (Pa. & Va.) had uniformly voted agst. it
without reference to any other part of the system.

Mr. Randolph, urged as Col. Mason had done that
the sentence under consideration was connected with
that relating to Money bills, and might possibly be
affected by the result of the motion for reconsidering
the latter. That the postponement was therefore
not improper.

Question for postponing "each member shall have
one vote,"

N. H. divd. Mass. no. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no.
Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

The words were then agreed to as part of the
section.

Mr. Randolph then gave notice that he should
move to reconsider this whole Sect: 1. Art. V. as connected
with the 5. Sect. Art. IV. as to which he had
already given such notice.

Art. V. Sect. 2d. taken up.

Mr. Govr. Morris moved to insert after the words,
"immediately after," the following "they shall be
assembled in consequence of," which was agreed to
nem. con. as was then the whole sect. 2.

Art: V. Sect. 3. taken up.

Mr. Govr. Morris moved to insert 14 instead of 4
years citizenship as a qualification for Senators:
urging the danger of admitting strangers into our
public Councils. Mr. Pinkney 2d. him

Mr. Elseworth, was opposed to the motion as discouraging
meritorious aliens from emigrating to this
Country.

Mr. Pinkney. As the Senate is to have the power
of making treaties & managing our foreign affairs,
there is peculiar danger and impropriety in opening
its door to those who have foreign attachments. He
quoted the jealousy of the Athenians on this subject
who made it death for any stranger to intrude his
voice into their Legislative proceedings.

Col. Mason highly approved of the policy of the
motion. Were it not that many not natives of this
Country had acquired great merit during the revolution,
he should be for restraining the eligibility into
the Senate, to natives.

Mr. Madison was not averse to some restrictions on
this subject; but could never agree to the proposed
amendment. He thought any restriction however in
the Constitution unnecessary, and improper, unnecessary;
because the Natl. Legislre. is to have the right of
regulating naturalization, and can by virtue thereof
fix different periods of residence or conditions of enjoying
different privileges of Citizenship: Improper;
because it will give a tincture of illiberality to the
Constitution: because it will put it out of the power
of the Natl. Legislature even by special acts of naturalization
to confer the full rank of Citizens on
meritorious strangers & because it will discourage the
most desirable class of people from emigrating to
the U. S. Should the proposed Constitution have
the intended effect of giving stability & reputation to

our Govts. great numbers of respectable Europeans;
men who love liberty and wish to partake its blessings,
will be ready to transfer their fortunes hither.
All such would feel the mortification of being marked
with suspicious incapacitations though they sd. not
covet the public honors. He was not apprehensive
that any dangerous number of strangers would be
appointed by the State Legislatures, if they were left
at liberty to do so: nor that foreign powers would
make use of strangers as instruments for their purposes.
Their bribes would be expended on men
whose circumstances would rather stifle than excite
jealousy & watchfulness in the public.

Mr. Butler was decidedly opposed to the admission
of foreigners without a long residence in the Country.
They bring with them, not only attachments to
other Countries; but ideas of Govt. so distinct from
ours that in every point of view they are dangerous.
He acknowledged that if he himself had been called
into public life within a short time after his coming
to America, his foreign habits opinions & attachments
would have rendered him an improper agent in public
affairs. He mentioned the great strictness observed
in Great Britain on this subject.

Docr. Franklin was not against a reasonable time,
but should be very sorry to see any thing like illiberality
inserted in the Constitution. The people in
Europe are friendly to this Country. Even in the
Country with which we have been lately at war,
we have now & had during the war, a great many
friends not only among the people at large but in

both houses of Parliament. In every other Country
in Europe all the people are our friends. We found
in the course of the Revolution, that many strangers
served us faithfully, and that many natives took part
agst. their Country. When foreigners after looking
about for some other Country in which they can
obtain more happiness, give a preference to ours, it
is a proof of attachment which ought to excite our
confidence & affection.

Mr. Randolph did not know but it might be problematical
whether emigrations to this Country were
on the whole useful or not: but he could never agree
to the motion for disabling them for 14 years to participate
in the public honours. He reminded the
Convention of the language held by our patriots
during the Revolution, and the principles laid down
in all our American Constitutions. Many foreigners
may have fixed their fortunes among us under the
faith of these invitations. All persons under this
description, with all others who would be affected
by such a regulation, would enlist themselves under
the banners of hostility to the proposed System. He
would go as far as seven years, but no further.

Mr. Wilson said he rose with feelings which were
perhaps peculiar; mentioning the circumstance of
his not being a native, and the possibility, if the ideas
of some gentlemen should be pursued, of his being
incapacitated from holding a place under the very
Constitution, which he had shared in the trust of
making. He remarked the illiberal complexion
which the motion would give to the System & the

effect which a good system would have in inviting
meritorious foreigners among us, and the discouragement
& mortification they must feel from the
degrading discrimination now proposed. He had
himself experienced this mortification. On his removal
into Maryland, he found himself, from defect
of residence, under certain legal incapacities which
never ceased to produce chagrin, though he assuredly
did not desire & would not have accepted the
offices to which they related. To be appointed to
a place may be matter of indifference. To be incapable
of being appointed, is a circumstance grating
and mortifying.

Mr. Govr. Morris. The lesson we are taught is that
we should be governed as much by our reason, and
as little by our feelings as possible. What is the
language of Reason on this subject? That we
should not be polite at the expence of prudence.
There was a moderation in all things. It is said
that some tribes of Indians, carried their hospitality
so far as to offer to strangers their wives & daughters.
Was this a proper model for us? He would admit
them to his house, he would invite them to his table,
would provide for them comfortable lodgings; but
would not carry the complaisance so far as, to bed
them with his wife. He would let them worship at
the same altar, but did not choose to make Priests of
them. He ran over the privileges which emigrants
would enjoy among us, though they should be deprived
of that of being eligible to the great offices of
Government; observing that they exceeded the

privileges allowed to foreigners in any part of the
world; and that as every Society from a great nation
down to a club had the right of declaring the conditions
on which new members should be admitted,
there could be no room for complaint. As to those
philosophical gentlemen, those Citizens of the World
as they called themselves, He owned he did not wish
to see any of them in our public Councils. He would
not trust them. The men who can shake off their
attachments to their own Country can never love any
other. These attachments are the wholesome prejudices
which uphold all Governments. Admit a
Frenchman into your Senate, and he will study to
increase the commerce of France: an Englishman,
he will feel an equal bias in favor of that of England.
It has been said that The Legislatures will not chuse
foreigners, at least improper ones. There was no
knowing what Legislatures would do. Some appointments
made by them, proved that every thing
ought to be apprehended from the cabals practised
on such occasions. He mentioned the case of a foreigner
who left this State in disgrace, and worked
himself into an appointment from another to Congress.

Question on the motion of Mr. Govr. Morris to insert
14 in place of 4 years

N. H. ay. Mass. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. no.
Del. no. Md no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. ay.
Geo. ay.

On 13 years, moved by Mr. Govr. Morris

N. H. ay. Mass. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. no.

Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. ay.
Geo. ay.

On 10 years moved by Genl. Pinkney

N. H. ay. Mass. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. no.
Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay.
Geo. ay.

Dr. Franklin reminded the Convention that it did
not follow from an omission to insert the restriction in
the Constitution that the persons in question wd. be
actually chosen into the Legislature.

Mr. Rutlidge. 7 years of Citizenship have been
required for the House of Representatives. Surely
a longer time is requisite for the Senate, which will
have more power.

Mr. Williamson. It is more necessary to guard the
Senate in this case than the other House. Bribery
& cabal can be more easily practised in the choice of
the Senate which is to be made by the Legislatures
composed of a few men, than of the House of Represents.
who will be chosen by the people.

Mr. Randolph will agree to 9 years with the expectation
that it will be reduced to seven if Mr. Wilson's
motion to reconsider the vote fixing 7 years for the
House of Representatives should produce a reduction
of that period.

On a question for 9 years

N. H. ay. Mass. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. no.
Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. divd. S. C. ay.
Geo. ay.

The term "Resident" was struck out, & "inhabitant"
inserted nem. con.

Art. V. Sect. 3. as amended agreed to nem. con.
Sect. 4. agreed to nem. con.

Article VI. Sect. 1. taken up.

Mr. Madison & Mr. Govr. Morris moved to strike out
"each House" & to insert "the House of Representatives;"
the right of the Legislatures to regulate the
times & places &c in the election of Senators being
involved in the right of appointing them, which was
disagreed to.

Division of the question being called, it was taken
on the first part down to "but their provisions concerning
&c."

The first part was agreed to nem. con.

Mr. Pinkney & Mr. Rutlidge moved to strike out the
remaining part viz but their provisions concerning
them may at any time be altered by the Legislature
of the United States. The States they contended
could & must be relied on in such cases.

Mr. Ghorum. It would be as improper take this
power from the Natl. Legislature, as to Restrain the
British Parliament from regulating the circumstances
of elections, leaving this business to the
Counties themselves—

Mr. Madison. The necessity of a Genl. Govt. supposes

that the State Legislatures will sometimes fail
or refuse to consult the common interest at the expence
of their local conveniency or prejudices. The
policy of referring the appointment of the House of
Representatives to the people and not to the Legislatures
of the States, supposes that the result will be
somewhat influenced by the mode. This view of the
question seems to decide that the Legislatures of the
States ought not to have the uncontrouled right of
regulating the times places & manner of holding elections.
These were words of great latitude. It was
impossible to foresee all the abuses that might be
made of the discretionary power. Whether the electors
should vote by ballot or viva voce, should
assemble at this place or that place; should be divided
into districts or all meet at one place, shd. all
vote for all the representatives; or all in a district
vote for a number allotted to the district; these &
many other points would depend on the Legislatures,
and might materially affect the appointments, Whenever
the State Legislatures had a favorite measure
to carry, they would take care so to mould their
regulations as to favor the candidates they wished
to succeed. Besides, the inequality of the Representation
in the Legislatures of particular States,
would produce a like inequality in their representation
in the Natl. Legislature, as it was presumable
that the Counties having the power in the former
case would secure it to themselves in the latter.
What danger could there be in giving a controuling
power to the Natl. Legislature? Of whom was it to
consist? 1. of a Senate to be chosen by the State
Legislatures. If the latter therefore could be
trusted, their representatives could not be dangerous.
2. of Representatives elected by the same
people who elect the State Legislatures; Surely
then if confidence is due to the latter, it must be due
to the former. It seemed as improper in principle,
though it might be less inconvenient in practice, to
give to the State Legislatures this great authority
over the election of the Representatives of the people
in the Genl. Legislature, as it would be to give to the
latter a like power over the election of their Representatives
in the State Legislatures.

Mr. King. If this power be not given to the Natl.
Legislature, their right of judging of the returns of
their members may be frustrated. No probability
has been suggested of its being abused by them.
Altho this scheme of erecting the Genl. Govt. on the
authority of the State Legislatures has been fatal to
the federal establishment, it would seem as if many
gentlemen, still foster the dangerous idea.

Mr. Govr. Morris observed that the States might
make false returns and then make no provisions for
new elections.

Mr. Sherman did not know but it might be best to
retain the clause, though he had himself sufficient
confidence in the State Legislatures. The motion of
Mr. P. & Mr. R. did not prevail

The word "respectively" was inserted after the
word "State."

On the motion of Mr. Read the word "their" was
struck out, & "regulations in such cases" inserted in
place of "provisions concerning them" the clause
then reading—"but regulations in each of the foregoing
cases may at any time, be made or altered by
the Legislature of the U. S." This was meant to
give the Natl. Legislature a power not only to alter
the provisions of the States, but to make regulations
in case the States should fail or refuse altogether.

Art. VI. Sect. 1. as thus amended was agreed to
nem. con.

Adjourned.