University of Virginia Library

Saturday Augst. 11 in Convention

Mr. Madison & Mr. Rutlidge moved "that each
House shall keep a journal of its proceedings, &
shall publish the same from time to time; except
such part of the proceedings of the Senate, when
acting not in its Legislative capacity as may be
judged by that House to require secrecy."

Mr. Mercer. This implies that other powers than
legislative will be given to the Senate which he hoped
would not be given.

Mr. Madison & Mr. R's motion was disagd. to by all
the States except Virga.

Mr. Gerry & Mr. Sharman moved to insert after the
words "publish them" the following "except such
as relate to treaties & military operations." Their
object was to give each House a discretion in such
cases.—On this question

N. H. no. Mass. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. no.
Del. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

Mr. Elseworth. As the clause is objectionable in
so many shapes, it may as well be struck out altogether.
The Legislature will not fail to publish
their proceedings from time to time. The people
will call for it if it should be improperly omitted.

Mr. Wilson thought the expunging of the clause
would be very improper. The people have a right
to know what their Agents are doing or have done,
and it should not be in the option of the Legislature
to conceal their proceedings. Besides as this is a
clause in the existing confederation, the not retaining
it would furnish the adversaries of the reform
with a pretext by which weak & suspicious minds
may be easily misled.

Mr. Mason thought it would give a just alarm to
the people, to make a conclave of their Legislature.

Mr. Sherman thought the Legislature might be
trusted in this case if in any.

Question on 1st. part of the section down to
"publish them" inclusive: Agreed to nem. con.

Question on the words to follow, to wit "except
such parts thereof as may in their Judgment require
secrecy." N. H. divd. Mass. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. ay.
Pa. no. Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C.
no. Geo. ay.

The remaining part as to yeas & nays,—agreed to
nem. con.

Art VI. Sect. 8. taken up.

Mr. King remarked that the section authorized the

2 Houses to adjourn to a new place. He thought
this inconvenient. The mutability of place had dishonored
the federal Govt. and would require as strong
a cure as we could devise. He thought a law at least
should be made necessary to a removal of the Seat
of Govt.

Mr. Madison viewed the subject in the same light,
and joined with Mr. King in a motion requiring a law.

Mr. Governr. Morris proposed the additional alteration
by inserting the words, "during the Session"
&c.

Mr. Spaight. This will fix the seat of Govt. at N. Y.
The present Congress will convene them there in the
first instance, and they will never be able to remove,
especially if the Presidt. should be [a] Northern Man.

Mr. Govr. Morris such a distrust is inconsistent with
all Govt.

Mr. Madison supposed that a central place for the
seat of Govt. was so just and wd. be so much insisted
on by the H. of Representatives, that though a law
should be made requisite for the purpose, it could &
would be obtained. The necessity of a central residence
of the Govt. wd. be much greater under the new
than old Govt. The members of the new Govt. wd. be
more numerous. They would be taken more from
the interior parts of the States; they wd. not like
members of ye. present Congs. come so often from
the distant States by water. As the powers & objects
of the new Govt. would be far greater yn. heretofore,
more private individuals wd. have business calling
them to the seat of it, and it was more necessary

that the Govt. should be in that position from which
it could contemplate with the most equal eye, and
sympathize most equally with, every part of the
nation. These considerations he supposed would
extort a removal even if a law were made necessary.
But in order to quiet suspicions both within & without
doors, it might not be amiss to authorize the 2
Houses by a concurrent vote to adjourn at their first
meeting to the most proper place, and to require
thereafter, the sanction of a law to their removal.

The motion was accordingly moulded into the
following form: "the Legislature shall at their first
assembling determine on a place at which their
future sessions shall be held; neither House shall
afterwards, during the session of the House of Reps.
without the consent of the other, adjourn for more
than three days, nor shall they adjourn to any other
place than such as shall have been fixt by law."

Mr. Gerry thought it would be wrong to let the
Presidt. check the will of the 2 Houses on this subject
at all.

Mr. Williamson supported the ideas of Mr. Spaight.

Mr. Carrol was actuated by the same apprehensions.

Mr. Mercer, it will serve no purpose to require the
two Houses at their first meeting to fix on a place.
They will never agree.

After some further expressions from others denoting
an apprehension that the seat of Govt. might be
continued at an improper place if a law should be
made necessary to a removal, and the motion above

stated with another for recommitting the section had
been negatived, the section was left in the shape it
which it was reported as to this point. The words,
"during the session of the Legislature were prefixed
to the 8th section—and the last sentence "But this
regulation shall not extend to the Senate when it
shall exercise the powers mentioned in the——
article" struck out. The 8th. section as amended
was then agreed to.

Mr. Randolph moved according to notice to reconsider
Art: IV. Sect. 5. concerning money bills which
had been struck out. He argued 1. that he had not
wished for this privilege whilst a proportional Representation
in the Senate was in contemplation, but
since an equality had been fixed in that house, the
large States would require this compensation at
least. 2. that it would make the plan more acceptable
to the people, because they will consider the
Senate as the more aristocratic body, and will expect
that the usual guards agst. its influence be provided
according to the example in G. Britain. 3. the
privilege will give some advantage to the House of
Reps. if it extends to the originating only—but still
more if it restrains the Senate from amendg. 4. he
called on the smaller States to concur in the measure,
as the condition by which alone the compromise had
entitled them to an equality in the Senate. He signified
that he should propose instead of the original
section, a clause specifying that the bills in question
should be for the purpose of Revenue, in order to
repel ye. objection agst. the extent of the words, "raising

money," which might happen incidentally, and
that the Senate should not so amend or alter as to
increase or diminish the sum; in order to obviate the
inconveniences urged agst. a restriction of the Senate
to a simple affirmation or negative.

Mr. Williamson 2ded. the motion.

Mr. Pinkney was sorry to oppose the opportunity
gentlemen asked to have the question again opened
for discussion, but as he considered it a mere waste
of time he could not bring himself to consent to it.
He said that notwithstanding what had been said as
to the compromise, he always considered this section
as making no part of it. The rule of Representation
in the 1st. branch was the true condition of that in the
2d. branch.—Several others spoke for & agst. the reconsideration,
but without going into the merits.—
On the Question to reconsider

N. H. ay. Mass. ay. Ct. ay. N. J.[22] ay. Pa. ay.
Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. divd.
Geo. ay.—Monday was then assigned—

Adjd.[23]