University of Virginia Library

Wednesday Sepr. 5. 1787. In Convention.

Mr. Brearley from the Committee of Eleven made a
farther report as follows,

(1)

• To add to the clause "to declare war" the
  words "and grant letters of marque and reprisal"

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(2)

• To add to the clause "to raise and support
  armies" the words "but no appropriation of money
  to that use shall be for a longer term than two years"

(3)

• Instead of sect: 12. art 6. say—"All bills for
  raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives,
  and shall be subject to alterations and
  amendments by the Senate: no money shall be
  drawn from the Treasury, but in consequence of appropriations
  made by law."

(4)

• Immediately before the last clause of sect. 1.
  art. 7. insert "To exercise exclusive legislation in all
  cases whatsoever over such district (not exceeding
  ten miles square) as may, by Cession of particular
  States and the acceptance of the Legislature become
  the Seat of the Government of the U. S and to exercise
  like authority over all places purchased for the
  erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, Dock Yards,
  and other needful buildings."

(5)

• "To promote the progress of Science and useful
  arts by securing for limited times to authors &
  inventors, the exclusive right to their respective
  writings and discoveries"

This report being taken up,—The (1) clause was
agreed to nem: con:

To the (2) clause Mr. Gerry objected that it admitted
of appropriations to an army, for two years
instead of one, for which he could not conceive a
reason, that it implied that there was to be a standing
army which he inveighed against as dangerous to
liberty, as unnecessary even for so great an extent of
Country as this, and if necessary, some restriction

on the number & duration ought to be provided:
Nor was this a proper time for such an innovation.
The people would not bear it.

Mr. Sherman remarked that the appropriations
were permitted only, not required to be for two years.
As the Legislature is to be biennally elected, it would
be inconvenient to require appropriations to be for
one year, as there might be no Session within the
time necessary to renew them. He should himself
he said like a reasonable restriction on the number
and continuance of an army in time of peace.

The (2) clause was then agreed to nem: con:

The (3) clause, Mr. Govr. Morris moved to postpone.
It had been agreed to in the Committee on the
ground of compromise, and he should feel himself at
liberty to dissent to it, if on the whole he should not
be satisfied with certain other parts to be settled.—
Mr. Pinkney 2ded. the motion

Mr. Sherman was for giving immediate ease to
those who looked on this clause as of great moment,
and for trusting to their concurrence in other proper
measures.

On the question for postponing

N. H. ay. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay.
Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo.
ay.

So much of the (4) clause as related to the seat of
Government was agreed to nem: con:

On the residue to wit, "to exercise like authority
over all places purchased for forts &c.

Mr. Gerry contended that this power might be made

use of to enslave any particular State by buying up
its territory, and that the strongholds proposed
would be a means of awing the State into an undue
obedience to the Genl. Government.

Mr. King thought himself the provision unnecessary,
the power being already involved: but would
move to insert after the word "purchased" the
words "by the consent of the Legislature of the
State" This would certainly make the power safe.

Mr. Govr. Morris 2ded. the motion, which was agreed
to nem: con: as was then the residue of the clause as
amended.

The (5) clause was agreed to nem: con:

The following Resolution & order being reported
from the Committee of eleven, to wit,

"Resolved that the U. S. in Congress be requested
to allow and cause to be paid to the Secretary and
other officers of this Convention such sums in proportion
to their respective times of service, as are
allowed to the Secretary & similar officers of Congress."

"Ordered that the Secretary make out & transmit
to the Treasury office of the U. S. an account for the
said services & for the incidental expences of this
Convention"

The resolution & order were separately agreed to
nem: con:

Mr. Gerry gave notice that he should move to reconsider
articles XIX. XX. XXI. XXII.

Mr. Williamson gave like notice as to the article
fixing the number of Representatives, which he

thought too small. He wished also to allow Rho:
Island more than one, as due to her probable number
of people, and as proper to stifle any pretext arising
from her absence on the occasion.

The Report made yesterday as to the appointment
of the Executive being then taken up. Mr. Pinkney
renewed his opposition to the mode, arguing 1. that
the electors will not have sufficient knowledge of the
fittest men, & will be swayed by an attachment to
the eminent men of their respective States. Hence
2dly. the dispersion of the votes would leave the appointment
with the Senate, and as the President's
reappointment will thus depend on the Senate he
will be the mere creature of that body. 3. He will
combine with the Senate agst. the House of Representatives.
4. This change in the mode of election
was meant to get rid of the ineligibility of the President
a second time, whereby he will become fixed for
life under the auspices of the Senate.

Mr. Gerry did not object to this plan of constituting
the Executive in itself, but should be governed in
his final vote by the powers that may be given to
the President.

Mr. Rutlidge was much opposed to the plan reported
by the Committee. It would throw the whole
power into the Senate. He was also against a reeligibility.
He moved to postpone the Report under
consideration & take up the original plan of appointment
by the Legislature, to wit. "He shall be
elected by joint ballot by the Legislature to which
election a majority of the votes of the members

present shall be required: He shall hold his office
during the term of seven years; but shall not be
elected a second time."

On this motion to postpone

N. H. divd. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no.
Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo.
no.

Col. Mason admitted that there were objections to
an appointment by the Legislature as originally
planned. He had not yet made up his mind, but
would state his objections to the mode proposed by
the Committee. 1. It puts the appointment in fact
into the hands of the Senate; as it will rarely happen
that a majority of the whole votes will fall on any one
candidate: and as the existing President will always
be one of the 5 highest, his reappointment will of course
depend on the Senate. 2. Considering the powers
of the President & those of the Senate, if a coalition
should be established between these two branches,
they will be able to subvert the Constitution—The
great objection with him would be removed by depriving
the Senate of the eventual election. He
accordingly moved to strike out the words "if such
number be a majority of that of the electors."

Mr. Williamson 2ded. the motion. He could not
agree to the clause without some such modification.
He preferred making the highest tho' not having a
majority of the votes, President, to a reference of the
matter to the Senate. Referring the appointment
to the Senate lays a certain foundation for corruption
& aristocracy.

Mr. Govr. Morris thought the point of less consequence
than it was supposed on both sides. It is
probable that a majority of the votes will fall on the
same man. As each Elector is to give two votes,
more than ¼ will give a majority. Besides as one
vote is to be given to a man out of the State, and as
this vote will not be thrown away, ½ the votes will
fall on characters eminent & generally known. Again
if the President shall have given satisfaction, the
votes will turn on him of course, and a majority of
them will reappoint him, without resort to the Senate:
If he should be disliked, all disliking him,
would take care to unite their votes so as to ensure
his being supplanted.

Col. Mason those who think there is no danger of
there not being a majority for the same person in the
first instance, ought to give up the point to those who
think otherwise.

Mr. Sherman reminded the opponents of the new
mode proposed that if the small States had the advantage
in the Senate's deciding among the five
highest candidates the large States would have in
fact the nomination of these candidates.

On the motion of Col: Mason

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no.
Del. no. Md. ay.[52] Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. no.
Geo. no.

Mr. Wilson moved to strike out "Senate" and insert
the word "Legislature"

Mr. Madison considered it as a primary object to

render an eventual resort to any part of the Legislature
improbable. He was apprehensive that the
proposed alteration would turn the attention of
the large States too much to the appointment of
candidates, instead of aiming at an effectual appointment
of the officer, as the large States would predominate
in the Legislature which would have the
final choice out of the candidates. Whereas if the
Senate in which the small States predominate should
have the final choice, the concerted effort of the
large States would be to make the appointment in
the first instance conclusive.

Mr. Randolph. We have in some revolutions of
this plan made a bold stroke for Monarchy. We are
now doing the same for an aristocracy. He dwelt on
the tendency of such an influence in the Senate over
the election of the President in addition to its other
powers, to convert that body into a real & dangerous
Aristocracy.

Mr. Dickinson was in favor of giving the eventual
election to the Legislature, instead of the Senate. It
was too much influence to be superadded to that body.

On the question moved by Mr. Wilson

N. H. divd. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. ay.
Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo.
no.

Mr. Madison & Mr. Williamson moved to strike out
the word "majority" and insert "one-third" so that
the eventual power might not be exercised if less
than a majority, but not less than 1/3 of the Electors
should vote for the same person.

Mr. Gerry objected that this would put it in the
power of three or four States to put in whom they
pleased.

Mr. Williamson. There are seven States which do
not contain one third of the people. If the Senate are
to appoint, less than one sixth of the people will have
the power.

On the question

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no.
Del. no. Md no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo.
no.

Mr. Gerry suggested that the eventual election
should be made by six Senators and seven Representatives
chosen by joint ballot of both Houses.

Mr. King observed that the influence of the Small
States in the Senate was somewhat balanced by the
influence of the large States in bringing forward
the candidates,[53] and also by the Concurrence of the
small States in the Committee in the clause vesting
the exclusive origination of Money bills in the House
of Representatives.

Col: Mason moved to strike out the word "five"
and insert the word "three" as the highest candidates
for the Senate to choose out of.

Mr. Gerry 2ded. the motion

Mr. Sherman would sooner give up the plan. He
would prefer seven or thirteen.

On the question moved by Col: Mason & Mr.
Gerry

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no.
Delaware [and] Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no.
Geo. no.

Mr. Spaight and Mr. Rutlidge moved to strike out
"five" and insert "thirteen"—to which all the
States disagreed—except N. C. & S. C.

Mr. Madison & Mr. Williamson moved to insert after
"Electors" the words "who shall have balloted" so
that the non voting electors not being counted might
not increase the number necessary as a majority of
the whole to decide the choice without the agency of
the Senate.

On this question

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. ay.
Del. no. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo.
no.

Mr. Dickinson moved, in order to remove ambiguity
from the intention of the clause as explained
by the vote, to add, after the words "if such number
be a majority of the whole number of the Electors"
the word "appointed"

On this motion

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Con. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay.
Delaware [and] Md. ay. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. ay.
Geo. ay.

Col: Mason. As the mode of appointment is now

regulated, he could not forbear expressing his opinion
that it is utterly inadmissible. He would prefer
the Government of Prussia to one which will put all
power into the hands of seven or eight men, and fix
an Aristocracy worse than absolute monarchy.

The words "and of their giving their votes" being
inserted on motion for that purpose, after the words
"The Legislature may determine the time of chusing
and assembling the Electors"

The House adjourned.