University of Virginia Library

Friday August 31st. 1787 In Convention.

Mr. King moved to add to the end of Art: XXI the
words "between the said States" so as to confine the
operation of the Govt. to the States ratifying it.

On the question

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay.
Md. no. Virga. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Mr. Madison proposed to fill the blank in the article
with "any seven or more States entitled to thirty
three members at least in the House of Representatives
according to the allotment made in the 3 Sect:
of Art: 4." This he said would require the concurrence
of a majority of both the States and the people.

Mr. Sherman doubted the propriety of authorizing
less than all the States to execute the Constitution,
considering the nature of the existing Confederation.
Perhaps all the States may concur, and on that supposition
it is needless to hold out a breach of faith.

Mr. Clymer and Mr. Carrol moved to postpone the
consideration of Art: XXI in order to take up the
Reports of Committees not yet acted on. On this
question, the States were equally divided. N. H. ay.

Mas. no. Ct. divd. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md.
ay. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. G. ay.

Mr. Govr. Morris moved to strike out "Conventions
of the" after "ratifications" leaving the States to
pursue their own modes of ratification.

Mr. Carrol mentioned the mode of altering the Constitution
of Maryland pointed out therein, and that
no other mode could be pursued in that State.

Mr. King thought that striking out "Conventions,"
as the requisite mode was equivalent to giving up
the business altogether. Conventions alone, which
will avoid all the obstacles from the complicated
formation of the Legislatures, will succeed, and if
not positively required by the plan its enemies will
oppose that mode.

Mr. Govr. Morris said he meant to facilitate the
adoption of the plan, by leaving the modes approved
by the several State Constitutions to be followed.

Mr. Madison considered it best to require Conventions;
Among other reasons, for this, that the powers
given to the Genl. Govt. being taken from the State
Govts. the Legislatures would be more disinclined
than conventions composed in part at least of other
men; and if disinclined, they could devise modes apparently
promoting, but really thwarting the ratification.
The difficulty in Maryland was no greater
than in other States, where no mode of change was
pointed out by the Constitution, and all officers were
under oath to support it. The people were in fact,
the fountain of all power, and by resorting to them,
all difficulties were got over. They could alter

constitutions as they pleased. It was a principle
in the Bills of rights, that first principles might be
resorted to.

Mr. Mc.Henry said that the officers of Govt. in Maryland
were under oath to support the mode of alteration
prescribed by the Constitution.

Mr. Ghorum urged the expediency of "Conventions"
also Mr. Pinkney, for reasons formerly urged on a discussion
of this question.

Mr. L. Martin insisted on a reference to the State
Legislatures. He urged the danger of commotions
from a resort to the people & to first principles, in
which the Governments might be on one side and the
people on the other. He was apprehensive of no
such consequences however in Maryland, whether the
Legislature or the people should be appealed to.
Both of them would be generally against the Constitution.
He repeated also the peculiarity in the
Maryland Constitution.

Mr. King observed that the Constitution of Massachusetts
was made unalterable till the year 1790,
yet this was no difficulty with him. The State must
have contemplated a recurrence to first principles
before they sent deputies to this Convention.

Mr. Sherman moved to postpone art. XXI. & to
take up art: XXII on which question,

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. no. P. ay.
Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo.
no.

On Mr. Govr. Morris's motion to strike out "Conventions
of the," it was negatived

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay.
Del. no. Md. ay. Va. no. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

On filling the blank in Art: XXI with "thirteen"
moved by Mr. Carrol & Martin, N. H. no. Mas. no.
Ct. no, all except Maryland.

Mr. Sherman & Mr. Dayton moved to fill the blank
with "ten."

Mr. Wilson supported the motion of Mr. Madison,
requiring a majority both of the people and of States.

Mr. Clymer was also in favor of it.

Col: Mason was for preserving ideas familiar to
the people. Nine States had been required in all
great cases under the Confederation & that number
was on that account preferable

On the question for "ten"

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. no.
Del. no. Md. ay. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo.
ay.

On question for "nine"

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay.
Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo.
ay.

Art: XXI. as amended was then agreed to by all
the States, Maryland excepted, & Mr. Jenifer being ay.

Art. XXII taken up, to wit, "This Constitution
shall be laid before the U. S. in Congs. assembled for
their approbation; and it is the opinion of this Convention
that it should be afterwards submitted to a
Convention chosen, in each State under the recommendation
of its Legislature, in order to receive the
ratification of such Convention."

Mr. Govr. Morris & Mr. Pinkney moved to strike out
the words "for their approbation" On this question

N. H. ay. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. ay.[47] Pa. ay.
Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo.
no.

Mr. Govr. Morris & Mr. Pinkney then moved to amend
the art: so as to read

"This Constitution shall be laid before the U. S.
in Congress assembled; and it is the opinion of this
Convention that it should afterwards be submitted
to a Convention chosen in each State, in order to receive
the ratification of such Convention; to which
end the several Legislatures ought to provide for the
calling Conventions within their respective States as
speedily as circumstances will permit." Mr. Govr.
Morris said his object was to impress in stronger
terms the necessity of calling Conventions in order
to prevent enemies to the plan, from giving it the go
by. When it first appears, with the sanction of this
Convention, the people will be favorable to it. By
degrees the State officers, & those interested in the
State Govts. will intrigue & turn the popular current
against it.

Mr. L. Martin believed Mr. Morris to be right, that
after a while the people would be agst. it, but for a
different reason from that alledged. He believed
they would not ratify it unless hurried into it by
surprize.

Mr. Gerry enlarged on the idea of Mr. L. Martin in

which he concurred, represented the system as full
of vices, and dwelt on the impropriety of destroying
the existing Confederation, without the unanimous
consent of the parties to it.

Question on Mr. Govr. Morris's & Mr. Pinkney's
motion

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. ay.
Del. ay. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo.
no.

Mr. Gerry moved to postpone art: XXII.

Col: Mason 2ded. the motion, declaring that he
would sooner chop off his right hand than put it to
the Constitution as it now stands. He wished to see
some points not yet decided brought to a decision,
before being compelled to give a final opinion on this
article. Should these points be improperly settled,
his wish would then be to bring the whole subject
before another general Convention.

Mr. Govr. Morris was ready for a postponement.
He had long wished for another Convention, that
will have the firmness to provide a vigorous Government,
which we are afraid to do.

Mr. Randolph stated his idea to be, in case the final
form of the Constitution should not permit him to
accede to it, that the State Conventions should be
at liberty to propose amendments to be submitted to
another General Convention which may reject or incorporate
them, as may be judged proper.

On the question for postponing

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. no.
Del. no. Md. ay. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On the question on Art: XXII

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay.
Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo.
ay.

Art: XXIII being taken up, as far as the words
"assigned by Congress" inclusive, was agreed to
nem: con: the blank having been first filled with the
word "nine" as of course.

On a motion for postponing the residue of the
clause, concerning the choice of the President &c.

N. H. no. Mas. ay. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no.
Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo.
no.

Mr. Govr. Morris then moved to strike out the words
"choose the President of the U. S. and"—this point,
of choosing the President not being yet finally determined,
& on this question

N. H. no. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay.
Del. ay. Md. divd. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay.[48]
Geo. ay.

Art: XXIII as amended was then agreed to nem:
con:

The Report of the Grand Committee of eleven
made by Mr. Sherman was then taken up (see Aug:
28)

On the question to agree to the following clause,
to be inserted after sect. 4. art: VII. "nor shall any
regulation of commerce or revenue give preference
to the ports of one State over those of another."
Agreed to nem: con:

On the clause "or oblige vessels bound to or from
any State to enter clear or pay duties in another"

Mr. Madison thought the restriction wd. be inconvenient,
as in the River Delaware, if a vessel cannot
be required to make entry below the jurisdiction of
Pennsylvaina.

Mr. Fitzimmons admitted that it might be inconvenient,
but thought it would be a greater inconvenience
to require vessels bound to Philada. to enter
below the jurisdiction of the State.

Mr. Ghorum & Mr. Langdon, contended that the
Govt. would be so fettered by this clause, as to defeat
the good purpose of the plan. They mentioned
the situation of the trade of Mas. & N. Hampshire,
the case of Sandy Hook which is in the State of N.
Jersey, but where precautions agst. smuggling into N.
York, ought to be established by the Genl. Government.

Mr. Mc. Henry said the clause would not screen a
vessel from being obliged to take an officer on board
as a security for due entry &c.

Mr. Carrol was anxious that the clause should be
agreed to. He assured the House, that this was a
tender point in Maryland.

Mr. Jennifer urged the necessity of the clause in the
same point of view.

On the question for agreeing to it

N. H. no. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay.
Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

The word "tonnage" was struck out, nem: con: as
comprehended in "duties."

On Question on the clause of the Report "and all
duties, imposts & excises, laid by the Legislature
shall be uniform throughout the U. S." It was
agreed to nem: con:[49]

On motion, of Mr. Sherman it was agreed to refer
such parts of the Constitution as have been postponed,
and such parts of Reports as have not been
acted on, to a Committee of a member from each
State; the Committee appointed by ballot, being,
Mr. Gilman, Mr. King, Mr. Sherman, Mr. Brearly, Mr.
Govr. Morris, Mr. Dickinson, Mr. Carrol, Mr. Madison,
Mr. Williamson, Mr. Butler, & Mr. Baldwin.

The House adjourned