University of Virginia Library

Saturday August 18. in Convention

Mr. Madison submitted, in order to be referred to the
Committee of detail the following powers as proper
to be added to those of the General Legislature

"To dispose of the unappropriated lands of the U.
States"

"To institute temporary Governments for new
States arising therein"

"To regulate affairs with the Indians as well
within as without the limits of the U. States.

"To exercise exclusively Legislative authority at
the seat of the General Government, and over a
district around the same, not exceeding—
square miles; the Consent of the Legislature of the
State or States comprising the same, being first obtained"

"To grant charters of incorporation in cases where
the public good may require them, and the authority
of a single State may be incompetent"

"To secure to literary authors their copy rights
for a limited time"

"To establish an University"

"To encourage by premiums & provisions, the advancement
of useful knowledge and discoveries"

"To authorize the Executive to procure and hold

for the use of the U. S. landed property for the erection
of Forts, magazines, and other necessary buildings"

These propositions were referred to the Committee
of detail which had prepared the Report and
at the same time the following which were moved
by Mr. Pinkney:—in both cases unanimously:

"To fix and permanently establish the seat of
Government of the U. S. in which they shall possess
the exclusive right of soil & jurisdiction"

"To establish seminaries for the promotion of
literature and the arts & sciences."

"To grant charters of incorporation"

"To grant patents for useful inventions"

"To secure to Authors exclusive rights for a certain
time"

"To establish public institutions, rewards and immunities
for the promotion of agriculture, commerce,
trades and manufactures"

"That funds which shall be appropriated for the
payment of public Creditors, shall not during the
time of such appropriation, be diverted or applied to
any other purpose and that the Committee prepare
a clause or clauses for restraining the Legislature of
the U. S. from establishing a perpetual revenue"

"To secure the payment of the public debt"

"To secure all creditors under the new Constitution
from a violation of the public faith when pledged
by the authority of the Legislature"

"To grant letters of mark and reprisal"

"To regulate Stages on the post roads"

Mr. Mason introduced the subject of regulating the
militia. He thought such a power necessary to be
given to the Genl. Government. He hoped there
would be no standing army in time of peace, unless
it might be for a few garrisons. The Militia ought
therefore to be the more effectually prepared for the
public defence. Thirteen States will never concur in
any one system, if the disciplining of the Militia be
left in their hands. If they will not give up the
power over the whole, they probably will over a part
as a select militia. He moved as an addition to the
propositions just referred to the Comittee of detail,
& to be referred in like manner, "a power to regulate
the militia."

Mr. Gerry remarked that some provision ought to be
made in favor of public Securities, and something inserted
concerning letters of marque, which he thought
not included in the power of war. He proposed that
these subjects should also go to a Committee.

Mr. Rutlidge moved to refer a clause "that funds
appropriated to public creditors should not be diverted
to other purposes."

Mr. Mason was much attached to the principle, but
was afraid such a fetter might be dangerous in time
of war. He suggested the necessity of preventing
the danger of perpetual revenue which must of necessity
subvert the liberty of any country. If it be
objected to on the principle of Mr. Rutlidge's motion
that public Credit may require perpetual provisions,
that case might be excepted; it being declared that
in other cases, no taxes should be laid for a longer

term than—years. He considered the caution
observed in Great Britain on this point as the paladium
of public liberty.

Mr. Rutlidge's motion was referred—He then
moved that a Grand Committee be appointed to
consider the necessity and expediency of the U.
States assuming all the State debts—A regular settlement
between the Union & the several States
would never take place. The assumption would be
just as the State debts were contracted in the common
defence. It was necessary, as the taxes on imports
the only sure source of revenue were to be
given up to the Union. It was politic, as by disburdening
the people of the State debts it would
conciliate them to the plan.

Mr. King and Mr. Pinkney seconded the motion.
(Col. Mason interposed a motion that the Committee
prepare a clause for restraining perpetual revenue,
which was agreed to nem. con.)

Mr. Sherman thought it would be better to authorize
the Legislature to assume the State debts, than
to say positively it should be done. He considered
the measure as just and that it would have a good
effect to say something about the matter.

Mr. Elseworth differed from Mr. Sherman. As far
as the State debts ought in equity to be assumed, he
conceived that they might and would be so.

Mr. Pinkney observed that a great part of the State
debts were of such a nature that although in point of
policy and true equity they ought, yet would they
not be viewed in the light of federal expenditures.

Mr. King thought the matter of more consequence
than Mr. Elseworth seemed to do; and that it was
well worthy of commitment. Besides the considerations
of justice and policy which had been mentioned,
it might be remarked that the State Creditors an
active and formidable party would otherwise be opposed
to a plan which transferred to the Union the
best resources of the States without transferring the
State debts at the same time. The State Creditors
had generally been the strongest foes to the impost-plan.
The State debts probably were of greater
amount than the federal. He would not say that
it was practicable to consolidate the debts, but he
thought it would be prudent to have the subject considered
by a Committee

On Mr. Rutlidge's motion, that a Come. be appointed
to consider of the assumption &c N. H. no. Mass. ay.
Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. divd. Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay.
N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Mr. Gerry's motion to provide for public securities,
for stages on post roads, and for letters of marque &
reprisal, were committed nem. con.

Mr. King suggested that all unlocated lands of particular
States ought to be given up if State debts
were to be assumed:—Mr. Williamson concurred in
the idea.

A Grand Committee was appointed consisting of
Mr. Langdon, Mr. King, Mr. Sharman, Mr. Livingston,
Mr. Clymer, Mr. Dickenson, Mr. Mc. Henry, Mr. Mason,
Mr. Williamson, Mr. C. C. Pinkney, Mr. Baldwin.

Mr. Rutlidge remarked on the length of the Session,

the probable impatience of the public and the extreme
anxiety of many members of the Convention
to bring the business to an end; concluding with a
motion that the Convention meet henceforward precisely
at 10 Oc A. M. and that precisely at 4 Oc P. M.
the President adjourn the House without motion for
the purpose, and that no motion to adjourn sooner
be allowed

On this question

N. H. ay. Mass. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. no.
Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo.
ay.

Mr. Elseworth observed that a Council had not
yet been provided for the President. He conceived
there ought to be one. His proposition was that it
should be composed of the President of the Senate,
the Chief Justice, and the ministers as they might be
estabd. for the departments of foreign & domestic
affairs, war finance and marine. who should advise
but not conclude the President.

Mr. Pinkney wished the proposition to lie over, as
notice had been given for a like purpose by Mr. Govr.
Morris who was not then on the floor. His own idea
was that the President shd. be authorized to call for
advice or not as he might chuse. Give him an able
Council and it will thwart him; a weak one and he
will shelter himself under their sanction.

Mr. Gerry was agst. letting the heads of the Departments,
particularly of finance have any thing to do
in business connected with legislation. He mentioned
the Chief Justice also as particularly exceptionable.

These men will also be so taken up
with other matters as to neglect their own proper
duties.

Mr. Dickenson urged that the great appointments
should be made by the Legislature in which case
they might properly be consulted by the Executive,
but not if made by the Executive himself—This subject
by general consent lay over; & the House proceeded
to the clause "To raise armies."

Mr. Ghorum moved to add "and support" after
"raise." Agreed to nem. con. and then the clause
was agreed to nem. con. as amended

Mr. Gerry took notice that there was no check here
agst. standing armies in time of peace. The existing
Congs. is so constructed that it cannot of itself maintain
an army. This wd. not be the case under the
new system. The people were jealous on this head,
and great opposition to the plan would spring from
such an omission. He suspected that preparations
of force were now making agst. it. (he seemed to
allude to the activity of the Govr. of N. York at this
crisis in disciplining the militia of that State.) He
thought an army dangerous in time of peace & could
never consent to a power to keep up an indefinite
number. He proposed that there shall not be kept
up in time of peace more than—thousand troops.
His idea was that the blank should be filled with two
or three thousand.

Instead of "to build and equip fleets"—"to provide
and maintain a navy" agreed to nem. con. as a
more convenient definition of the power.

"To make rules for the Government and regulation
of the land & naval forces," added from the
existing Articles of Confederation.

Mr. L. Martin and Mr. Gerry now regularly moved
"provided that in time of peace the army shall not
consist of more than—thousand men."

Genl. Pinkney asked whether no troops were ever
to be raised untill an attack should be made on us?

Mr. Gerry. if there be no restriction, a few States
may establish a military Govt.

Mr. Williamson, reminded him of Mr. Mason's motion
for limiting the appropriation of revenue as the best
guard in this case.

Mr. Langdon saw no room for Mr. Gerry's distrust
of the Representatives of the people.

Mr. Dayton, preparations for war are generally
made in peace; and a standing force of some sort
may, for ought we know, become unavoidable. He
should object to no restrictions consistent with
these ideas.

The motion of Mr. Martin and Mr. Gerry was disagreed
to nem. con.

Mr. Mason moved as an additionl power "to make
laws for the regulation and discipline of the militia
of the several States, reserving to the States the appointment
of the officers." He considered uniformity
as necessary in the regulation of the Militia
throughout the Union.

Genl. Pinkney mentioned a case during the war in
which a dissimilarity in the militia of different States
had produced the most serious mischiefs. Uniformity

was essential. The States would never keep
up a proper discipline of their militia.

Mr. Elseworth was for going as far in submitting the
militia to the Genl. Government as might be necessary,
but thought the motion of Mr. Mason went too
far. He moved that the militia should have the
same arms & exercise and be under rules established
by the Genl. Govt. when in actual service of the U.
States and when States neglect to provide regulations
for militia, it shd. be regulated & established by
the Legislature of U. S. The whole authority over
the militia ought by no means to be taken away
from the States whose consequence would pine away
to nothing after such a sacrifice of power. He
thought the Genl. Authority could not sufficiently
pervade the Union for such a purpose, nor could it
accommodate itself to the local genius of the people.
It must be vain to ask the States to give the Militia
out of their hands.

Mr. Sherman 2ds. the motion.

Mr. Dickenson. We are come now to a most important
matter, that of the sword. His opinion was
that the States never would nor ought to give up all
authority over the Militia. He proposed to restrain
the general power to one fourth part at a time, which
by rotation would discipline the whole Militia.

Mr. Butler urged the necessity of Submitting the
whole Militia to the general Authority, which had
the care of the general defence.

Mr. Mason. had suggested the idea of a select militia.
He was led to think that would be in fact as much as

the Genl. Govt. could advantageously be charged with.
He was afraid of creating insuperable objections to
the plan. He withdrew his original motion, and
moved a power "to make laws for regulating and
disciplining the militia, not exceeding one tenth part
in any one year, and reserving the appointment of
officers to the States."

Genl. Pinkney, renewed Mr. Mason's original motion.
For a part to be under the Genl. and a part
under the State Govts. wd. be an incurable evil. he
saw no room for such distrust of the Genl. Govt.

Mr. Langdon 2ds. General Pinkney's renewal. He
saw no more reason to be afraid of the Genl. Govt. than
of the State Govts. He was more apprehensive of the
confusion of the different authorities on this subject,
than of either.

Mr. Madison thought the regulation of the Militia
naturally appertaining to the authority charged with
the public defence. It did not seem in its nature to
be divisible between two distinct authorities. If the
States would trust the Genl. Govt. with a power over
the public treasure, they would from the same consideration
of necessity grant it the direction of the
public force. Those who had a full view of the public
situation wd. from a sense of the danger, guard agst. it:
the States would not be separately impressed with
the general situation, nor have the due confidence
in the concurrent exertions of each other.

Mr. Elseworth, considered the idea of a select
militia as impracticable; & if it were not it would
be followed by a ruinous declension of the great body

of the Militia. The States would never submit to
the same militia laws. Three or four shillings as a
penalty will enforce better obedience in New England,
than forty lashes in some other places.

Mr. Pinkney thought the power such an one as
could not be abused, and that the States would see
the necessity of surrendering it. He had however
but a scanty faith in Militia. There must be also a
real military force. This alone can effectually answer
the purpose. The United States had been making an
experiment without it, and we see the consequence
in their rapid approaches toward anarchy.[34]

Mr. Sherman, took notice that the States might
want their militia for defence agst. invasions and insurrections,
and for enforcing obedience to their laws.
They will not give up this point. In giving up that
of taxation, they retain a concurrent power of raising
money for their own use.

Mr. Gerry thought this the last point remaining to
be surrendered. If it be agreed to by the Convention,
the plan will have as black a mark as was set
on Cain. He had no such confidence in the Genl.
Govt. as some gentlemen possessed, and believed it
would be found that the States have not.

Col. Mason, thought there was great weight in the
remarks of Mr. Sherman, and moved an exception to
his motion "of such part of the militia as might be
required by the States for their own use."

Mr. Read doubted the propriety of leaving the appointment
of the Militia officers in the States. In
some States they are elected by the Legislatures; in
others by the people themselves. He thought at
least an appointment by the State Executives ought
to be insisted on.

On committing to the grand Committee last appointed,
the latter motion of Col. Mason, & the
original one revived by Ge1. Pinkney

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. ay.
Del. ay. Md. divd. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay.
Geo. ay.

Adjourned.