University of Virginia Library

Tuesday August 21. In Convention

Governour Livingston[35] from the Committee of
Eleven to whom was referred the propositions respecting
the debts of the several States and also the
Militia entered on the 18th. inst: delivered the following
report:

"The Legislature of the U. S. shall have power to
fulfil the engagements which have been entered into
by Congress, and to discharge as well the debts of
the U. S. as the debts incurred by the several States
during the late war, for the common defence and
general welfare"

"To make laws for organizing arming and disciplining
the militia, and for governing such part of them
as may be employed in the service of the U. S. reserving
to the States respectively, the appointment of the

officers, and the authority of training the militia according
to the discipline prescribed by the U. States"

Mr. Gerry considered giving the power only, without
adopting the obligation, as destroying the security
now enjoyed by the public creditors of the
U—States. He enlarged on the merit of this class
of citizens, and the solemn faith which had been
pledged under the existing Confederation. If their
situation should be changed as here proposed great
opposition would be excited agst. the plan. He
urged also that as the States had made different
degrees of exertion to sink their respective debts,
those who had done most would be alarmed, if they
were now to be saddled with a share of the debts of
States which had done least.

Mr. Sharman. It means neither more nor less than
the confederation as it relates to this subject.

Mr. Elseworth moved that the Report delivered in
by Govr. Livingston should lie on the table.—Agreed
to nem. con.

Art: VII. Sect. 3 resumed.—Mr. Dickinson moved
to postpone this in order to reconsider Art: IV. Sect.
4. and to limit the number of representatives to be
allowed to the large States. Unless this were done
the small States would be reduced to entire insignificancy,
and encouragement given to the importation
of slaves.

Mr. Sherman would agree to such a reconsideration,
but did not see the necessity of postponing the section
before the House.—Mr. Dickenson withdrew his
motion.

Art: VII. Sect 3. then agreed to 10 ays, Delaware
alone being no.

Mr. Sherman moved to add to Sect 3. the following
clause "And all accounts of supplies furnished, services
performed, and monies advanced by the several
States to the U. States, or by the U. S. to the
several States shall be adjusted by the same rule"

Mr. Governr. Morris 2ds. the motion.

Mr. Ghorum, thought it wrong to insert this in the
Constitution. The Legislature will no doubt do
what is right. The present Congress have such a
power and are now exercising it.

Mr. Sherman unless some rule be expressly given
none will exist under the new system.

Mr. Elseworth. Though The contracts of Congress
will be binding, there will be no rule for executing
them on the States; and one ought to be provided.

Mr. Sherman withdrew his motion to make way for
one of Mr. Williamson to add to Sect. 3. "By this rule
the several quotas of the States shall be determined
in settling the expences of the late war."

Mr. Carrol brought into view the difficulty that
might arise on this subject from the establishment of
the Constitution as intended without the unanimous
consent of the States

Mr. Williamson's motion was postponed nem. con.

Art: VI Sect. 12. which had been postponed of
Aug: 15. was now called for by Col. Mason, who
wished to know how the proposed amendment as to
money bills would be decided, before he agreed to
any further points.

Mr. Gerry's motion of yesterday that previous to a
census, direct taxation be proportioned on the
States according to the number of Representatives,
was taken up. He observed that the principal acts
of Government would probably take place within
that period, and it was but reasonable that the
States should pay in proportion to their share in
them.

Mr. Elseworth thought such a rule unjust. there
was a great difference between the number of Represents.
and the number of inhabitants as a rule in
this case. Even if the former were proportioned as
nearly as possible to the latter, it would be a very
inaccurate rule. A State might have one Representative
only that had inhabitants enough for 1 ½
or more, if fractions could be applied, &c—. He
proposed to amend the motion by adding the words,
"subject to a final liquidation by the foregoing rule
when a census shall have been taken"

Mr. Madison. The last appointment of Congs. on
which the number of Representatives was founded,
was conjectural and meant only as a temporary rule
till a Census should be established.

Mr. Read. The requisitions of Congs. had been accommodated
to the impoverishment produced by
the war; and to other local and temporary circumstances.

Mr. Williamson opposed Mr. Gerry's motion.

Mr. Langdon was not here when N. H. was allowed
three members. If it was more than her share; he
did not wish for them.

Mr. Butler contended warmly for Mr. Gerry's motion
as founded in reason and equity.

Mr. Elseworth's proviso to Mr. Gerry's motion was
agreed to nem. con.

Mr. King thought the power of taxation given to
the Legislature rendered the motion of Mr. Gerry
altogether unnecessary.

On Mr. Gerry's motion as amended

N. H. no. Mass. ay. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no.
Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. divd.. S. C. ay. Geo.
no.

On a question, Shall Art: VI Sect. 12. with the
amendment to it proposed & entered on the 15 instant,
as called for by Col. Mason be now taken up?
it passed in the negative.

N. H. ay. Mass. no. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. no.
Del. no. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo.
no.

Mr. L. Martin. The power of taxation is most
likely to be critcisied by the public. Direct taxation
should not be used but in cases of absolute necessity;
and then the States will be the best Judges of the
mode. He therefore moved the following addition to
Sect: 3: Art VII "And whenever the Legislature of
the U. S. shall find it necessary that revenue should
be raised by direct taxation, having apportioned the
same, according to the above rule on the several
States, requisitions shall be made of the respective
States to pay into the Continental Treasury their
respective quotas within a time in the said requisitions
specified; and in case of any of the States

failing to comply with such requisitions, then and
then only to devise and pass acts directing the mode,
and authorizing the collection of the same."

Mr. Mc.Henry 2ded. the motion—there was no debate,
and on the question

N. H. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pena. no. Del. no.
Md. divd. (Jenifer & Carol no) Va. no. N. C. no. S.
C. no. Geo. no.

Art. VII. Sect. 4.—Mr. Langdon, by this section
the States are left at liberty to tax exports. N. H.
therefore with other non-exporting States, will be
subject to be taxed by the States exporting its produce.
This could not be admitted. It seems to be
feared that the Northern States will oppress the
trade of the Southn. This may be guarded agst. by
requiring the concurrence of ⅔ or ¾ of the legislature
in such cases.

Mr. Elseworth. It is best as it stands. The power
of regulating trade between the States will protect
them agst. each other. Should this not be the case,
the attempts of one to tax the produce of another
passing through its hands, will force a direct exportation
and defeat themselves. There are solid,
reasons agst. Congs. taxing exports. 1. it will discourage
industry, as taxes on imports discourage
luxury. 2. The produce of different States is such
as to prevent uniformity in such taxes. There are
indeed but a few articles that could be taxed at all;
as Tob°. rice & indigo, and a tax on these alone would
be partial & unjust. 3. The taxing of exports would
engender incurable jealousies.

Mr. Williamson. Tho' N. C. has been taxed by
Virga. by a duty on 12000 Hhs of her Tob°. exported
thro' Virga. yet he would never agree to this power.
Should it take place, it would destroy the last hope
of an adoption of the plan.

Mr. Govr. Morris. These local considerations ought
not to impede the general interest. There is great
weight in the argument, that the exporting States
will tax the produce of their uncommercial neighbours.
The power of regulating the trade between
Pa. & N. Jersey will never prevent the former from
taxing the latter. Nor will such a tax force a direct
exportation from N. Jersey. The advantages possessed
by a large trading City, outweigh the disadvantage
of a moderate duty; and will retain the
trade in that channel. If no tax can be laid on exports,
an embargo cannot be laid though in time of
war such a measure may be of critical importance.
Tobacco, lumber and live-stock are three objects belonging
to different States, of which great advantage
might be made by a power to tax exports. To these
may be added Genseng and Masts for Ships by which
a tax might be thrown on other nations. The idea
of supplying the West Indies with lumber from Nova
Scotia is one of the many follies of lord Sheffield's
pamphlets. The State of the Country also will
change, and render duties on exports, as skins,
beaver & other peculiar raw materials, politic in the
view of encouraging American manufactures.

Mr. Butler was strenuously opposed to a power over
exports, as unjust and alarming to the staple States.

Mr. Langdon suggested a prohibition on the States
from taxing the produce of other States exported
from their harbours.

Mr. Dickenson. The power of taxing exports may
be inconvenient at present; but it must be of dangerous
consequence to prohibit it with respect to
all articles and for ever. He thought it would be
better to except particular articles from the power.

Mr. Sherman. It is best to prohibit the National
legislature in all cases. The States will never give up
all power over trade. An enumeration of particular
articles would be difficult invidious and improper

Mr. Madison As we ought to be governed by national
and permanent views, it is a sufficient argument
for giving ye. power over exports that a tax,
tho' it may not be expedient at present, may be
so hereafter. A porper regulation of exports may
& probably will be necessary hereafter, and for the
same purposes as the regulation of imports; viz,
for revenue—domestic manufactures—and procuring
equitable regulations from other nations. An
Embargo may be of absolute necessity, and can alone
be effectuated by the Genl. authority. The regulation
of trade between State and State cannot effect
more than indirectly to hinder a State from taxing
its own exports; by authorizing its Citizens to carry
their commodities freely into a neighbouring State
which might decline taxing exports in order to draw
into its channel the trade of its neighbours. As to
the fear of disproportionate burthens on the more
exporting States, it might be remarked that it was

agreed on all hands that the revenue wd. principally
be drawn from trade, and as only a given revenue
would be needed, it was not material whether all
should be drawn wholly from imports—or half from
those, and half from exports. The imports and
exports must be pretty nearly equal in every
State—and relatively the same among the different
States.

Mr. Elseworth did not conceive an embargo by the
Congress interdicted by this section.

Mr. Mc.Henry conceived that power to be included
in the power of war.

Mr. Wilson. Pennsylvania exports the produce of
Maryd. N. Jersey, Delaware & will by & by when
the River Delaware is opened, export for N. York.
In favoring the general power over exports therefore,
he opposed the particular interest of his State. He
remarked that the power had been attacked by
reasoning which could only have held good in case
the Genl. Govt. had been compelled, instead of authorized,
to lay duties on exports. To deny this
power is to take from the Common Govt. half the
regulation of trade. It was his opinion that a power
over exports might be more effectual than that over
imports in obtaining beneficial treaties of commerce

Mr. Gerry was strenuously opposed to the power
over exports. It might be made use of to compel
the States to comply with the will of the Genl. Government,
and to grant it any new powers which
might be demanded. We have given it more
power already than we know how will be exercised.

It will enable the Genl. Govt. to oppress the States as
much as Ireland is oppressed by Great Britain.

Mr. Fitzimmons[36] would be agst. a tax on exports to
be laid immediately; but was for giving a power of
laying the tax when a proper time may call for it.
This would certainly be the case when America should
become a manufacturing Country. He illustrated
his argument by the duties in G. Britain on wool &c.

Col. Mason. If he were for reducing the States to
mere corporations as seemed to be the tendency of
some arguments, he should be for subjecting their
exports as well as imports to a power of general
taxation. He went on a principle often advanced &
in which he concurred, that "a majority when interested
will oppress the minority." This maxim had
been verified by our own Legislature (of Virginia).
If we compare the States in this point of view the
8 Northern States have an interest different from
the five Southn. States; and have in one branch of
the legislature 36 votes agst. 29. and in the other in
the proportion of 8 agst. 5. The Southern States had
therefore ground for their suspicions. The case of
Exports was not the same with that of imports. The
latter were the same throughout the States; the
former very different. As to Tobacco other nations
do raise it, and are capable of raising it as well as
Virga. &c. The impolicy of taxing that article had
been demonstrated by the experiment of Virginia.

Mr. Clymer[37] remarked that every State might
reason with regard to its particular productions, in
the same manner as the Southern States. The middle
States may apprehend an oppression of their
wheat flour, provisions &c. and with more reason,
as these articles were exposed to a competition in
foreign markets not incident to Tob°. rice &c. They
may apprehend also combinations agst. them between
the Eastern & Southern States as much as the latter
can apprehend them between the Eastern & middle.
He moved as a qualification of the power of taxing
Exports that it should be restrained to regulations of
trade by inserting after the word "duty" sect 4
art VII the words, "for the purpose of revenue."

On Question on Mr. Clymer's motion

N. H. no. Mass. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. ay.
Del. ay. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo.
no.

Mr. Madison. In order to require ⅔n of each House
to tax exports, as a lesser evil than a total prohibition
moved to insert the words "unless by consent
of two thirds of the Legislature"

Mr. Wilson 2ds. and on this question, it passed in
the Negative.

N. H. ay. Mass. ay. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. ay.
Del. ay. Md. no. Va. no (Col. Mason, Mr. Randolph
Mr. Blair no. Genl. Washington & J. M. ay.)
N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

Question on Sect: 4. Art VII. as far as to "no tax
shl. be laid on exports—it passed in the affirmative.

N. H. no. Mass. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. no.
Del. no. Md. ay. Va. ay. (Genl. W. & J. M. no) N.
C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Mr. L. Martin, proposed to vary the Sect: 4. art VII
so as to allow a prohibition or tax on the importation
of slaves. 1. as five slaves are to be counted
as 3 free men in the apportionment of Representatives;
such a clause would leave an encouragement to
this trafic. 2 slaves weakened one part of the Union
which the other parts were bound to protect; the
privilege of importing them was therefore unreasonable.
3. it was inconsistent with the principles of
the revolution and dishonorable to the American
character to have such a feature in the Constitution.

Mr. Rutlidge did not see how the importation of
slaves could be encouraged by this section. He was
not apprehensive of insurrections and would readily
exempt the other States from the obligation to
protect the Southern against them. Religion & humanity
had nothing to do with this question. Interest
alone is the governing principle with nations.
The true question at present is whether the Southn.
States shall or shall not be parties to the Union. If
the Northern States consult their interest, they will
not oppose the increase of slaves which will increase
the commodities of which they will become the
carriers.

Mr. Elseworth was for leaving the clause as it
stands, let every State import what it pleases. The

morality or wisdom of slavery are considerations belonging
to the States themselves. What enriches a
part enriches the whole, and the States are the best
judges of their particular interest. The old confederation
had not meddled with this point, and he
did not see any greater necessity for bringing it
within the policy of the new one:

Mr. Pinkney. South Carolina can never receive
the plan if it prohibits the slave trade. In every
proposed extension of the powers of Congress, that
State has expressly & watchfully excepted that of
meddling with the importation of negroes. If the
States be all left at liberty on this subject, S. Carolina
may perhaps by degrees do of herself what is
wished, as Virginia & Maryland already have done.

Adjourned.