The writings of James Madison, comprising his public papers and his private correspondence, including numerous letters and documents now for the first time printed. |
 | NEGOTIATIONS WITH MR. ROSE. |
 | The writings of James Madison, |  |
THE WRITINGS OF
JAMES MADISON.
NEGOTIATIONS WITH MR. ROSE.
Friday, 1st Feby, 1808.
General object of interview.
Explain causes of Proclamation—☞ continuation of attack
—by seamen detained—officers recalled—Ships in Harbors
doing illegal things.
Grounds of prelimy. 1. Disavowal by Ld G. due to G. B.
even if war—2. General assurance and personal conviction.
Impossible for means of judging for ourselves
see Mr. E. Object of procln—precaution—not merely
as to the Chesapeake.
2. Errors. 1. In supposing reparation object—which an
item then only—2. Precaution vs. Chesapeake.
Disavowal—due to G. B.—even if war meant—honor, interest,
principle so much against her—disavowed by Ld Grenville
—disavowal no reparation—shews a disposition only to repair
—project of expln—particulars and contemporary acts.
Mr. Rose—suggests idea of his friendly return with rept of
the diffly.
J. M. reports this to P., who, on consultation on Monday,
atonement and repeal of procln to be contemporary acts.
Tuesday, Feby.
J. M. states to Mr. R. objection to adjournment of subject to
G. B., which Mr. Rose admits—and in conversation as between
two private Gentn enquires whether U. S. will agree to a mutual
discharge from public ships of all natural-born subjects and
Citizens, it appearing to be implied that this might contribute
to diminish difficulties and prepare way for something further
—willing to wait for answer.
Wednesday, Feby 3.
Idea of Cabinet that the mutual discharge not inadmissible,
if extended to Merchant Vessels; considering the advantage to
naturalized subjects, of being kept out of danger from being
taken into the jurisdiction of their former Sovereign; and that
Mr. R. be sounded as to his powers and dispositions.
Thursday, Feby 4.
Conversation of J. M. with Mr. Rose—explained himself
on the subject of Tuesday's conversation, by signifying that
his suggestion was a hasty thought, and that it was most
consonant to his situation to limit the enquiry to the case of
deserting subjects natural born. He was told this was already
provided for by the rules prescribed to our Naval Commanders.
Occasion was taken to express the desire of the
U. States to remove all causes of danger to the harmony, &c.,
as well as that exemplified in affair of Chesapeake, which was
evidently of a nature not likely to recur after disavowal, &c.
He did not open himself as to any thing beyond the limit to
which he reduced the enquiry, acquiescing generally in the
desirableness of a general adjustment, &c. The objections
to the delay of seeking further instructions, &c., was dwelt
on by both, and ended in a frank and direct suggestion by
be executed on same day, and so as not to shew on
the face of the proceeding a priority, leaving this to be assumed
respectively, as might be agreeable. He, Mr. Rose, would
take into consideration with best wishes, but was not sure
that his instructions could bend to it. He held out the idea
of exhibiting without editing the revoking proclamation, as
an expedient to save him. He was told nothing would be
admitted that would expose the Executive to appearance of
having yielded to his preliminary; and it was remarked that
Mr. Canning, if he had not supposed the Proclamation to be
a retaliation, and that the aggression had been discontinued,
which could not be during the detention of the men, would
have approved this course at least. Mr. Rose glanced at
idea of disclosing his terms, &c., through Mr. Erskine and
Mr. Robt Smith. He went away under an arrangement for
another interview to-morrow, 12 o'clock.
Feby 5th.
Conversation.
Mr. Rose appeared to have taken a view of the proposed
contemporary signing and adjustment of the Proclamation,
which required him to decline it definitely. On my restating
it, he resumed the conversation, and agreed to see me in the
evening at my house, in order to hold frank and informal
communications and explanations.
Evening of Feby 5.
He brought Mr. Erskine with him. The conversation was
free. The tenor of a suitable proclamation disclosed, and the
terms he meant to offer, viz: recall of Admiral Berkley, restoration
of [the ?] three men; and provision for families of the killed
and wounded. The idea of restoration to the same ship was
stated to him, which he seemed willing to favor; also punishment
of Berkley, which he said would be difficult by his co-officers,
permanent exclusion from actual employment. Agreed to
see one another at 1 o'clock to-morrow, at office of State.
Friday, Feby 6.
Conversation.
Mr. Rose starts the idea of a disavowal on our part of conduct
of Agents, &c., in encouraging and not discharging deserters
—natural-born subjects. This was combated as going out
of the case of the Chesapeake and leading to other subjects of
complaint; and particularly as justifying a demand of British
disavowal of—&c., &c. The difficulty, also, as to natural
born, was stated, in cases of naturalization. He was reminded,
too, that orders had been issued and circulated to
officers against recruiting deserters, &c., which was amply
sufficient. He retired under doubts as to the possibility of
his satisfying his instructions without obtaining this point.
Monday, Feby 8th, appointed to meet again.
Monday, Feby 8.
Instead of the expected matter, Mr. Rose very soon introduced,
as a point enjoined in his instructions, the necessity of
some disavowal on the part of the U. States as to the conduct
of their agents in encouraging, harbouring, and retaining, deserters,
natural-born subjects of H. B. M.; as what had preceded
the affair of the Chesapeake, and was but a reasonable satisfaction
to his Majesty preparatory to the adjustment intended
by him.
As this was a new and unlooked-for preliminary ultimatum,
though it had been glanced at in a former conversation, when
it was supposed to have been answered in a way putting it entirely
aside, it was proposed to him to reduce it to paper, so
that there might be no possible misconception, with a general
intimation only that it would not be admitted into the adjustment,
and that it would be impossible for the U. States to view
here, in any other light than as American Citizens whilst within
American jurisdiction. Mr. Rose agreed to see me the next
day, (Tuesday, Feby 9,) with his idea put into writing, to be
informally read to me.
Tuesday, Feby 9, 1808.
Mr. Rose read from his paper, in substance, that with a view
to remove impressions made by recent events on the mind of
H. B. M., the U. States should disavow the conduct of their
Agents in encouraging, harbouring, and not discharging
natural-born deserters—a case different from not surrendering,
which was not claimed.
He was reminded of the difficulty as to natural-born subjects
naturalized by the U. States; that if impressions were to
be removed on one side, so on the other, where they were
much greater, from the course of indignities offered by British
Ships in our harbours and on our coasts; that the proposal was
not reciprocal in itself—a thing essential to the honor of the
U. States, [here he remarked that this had not escaped him,
reading a reservation to the U. States of their right to claim
from G. Britain a like disavowal; to which the reply was, that
there was no reciprocity between an actual disavowal and a
right to ask a disavowal;] and, finally, that it could not enter
into the Chesapeake business, unless other things as much
connected with it were also to be admitted.
Being myself much indisposed, the conversation was soon
ended, with an understanding that I would take the orders of
the President, and see him as soon as convenient.
Sunday, Feby 14.
This was the earliest that I had health enough to see Mr.
Rose, who was invited to call at my house for the purpose. I
preferred the irregularity, both as to time and place, to a
delay, which was becoming very disagreeable on all sides,
by his having two British Packets detained till he
could say something on the subject of his mission.
Having previously obtained the sanction of the President, I
repeated the insuperable objections to his proposal, (adding,
in fact, that there had been no refusal to discharge deserters,
the demand being always to surrender,) and, in place, suggested
a mutual disavowal—1. As to receiving deserters into
naval service. 2d. As to claiming a surrender of them.
This would agree with the principles now maintained on both
sides, would be reciprocal, and might be useful. He admitted
that the surrender was not claimed, but that his instructions
did not authorise any such general or separate arrangements
being restricted to the case of the Chesapeake.
It was observed that this was at least as much connected
with that as the case of the discharge; and it was signified that
a mutual, general, and separate disavowal of this case alone
would not be inadmissible, with a saving, by the form of expression,
of the principle as to naturalized Citizens. This also
was declined, as not within his instructions.
He was finally told, as had been on former occasions intimated,
that it would be easy to write a letter on some pretext
to Mr. Erskine, explaining the principles of the U. States as to
Deserters; that if mere assurance of these principles was the
object of his Government, that object would thus be attained
as well as in his mode; if not that, but an expiatory act
on the part of the U. States was the object, it was absolutely
inadmissible.
He dwelt with expressions of great regret on the situation
in which he found himself, tied down, as he was, by his instructions,
and knowing, as he did, the impressions of his Government.
To all which it was simply remarked that the attack on
the Chesapeake was a detached, flagrant insult to the flag and
Sovereignty of the U. States on the high seas, in face of the
world; that the plain course was to repair that, according to
usage public and private, and to the examples of his own Government;
of redress on other points, if any existed, where it might
be due to the redressing party, and a general example was the
best mode of securing liberal satisfaction.
In course of this conversation, he mentioned, with an
apology for omitting it before when he intended to do it, that
a disavowal of Commodore Barron's denial that he had such
men on board as were required made a part of his instructions.
After remarking that it was impossible in any view that that
circumstance could be admitted, and that it was merely noticed
for the sake of truth, which could never do harm where
the manner did not imply something improper, I told him that
Barron was responsible to his Government for his conduct in
that instance; that his reply was wholly unbecoming his station;
that it was probable, however, that he said what he
believed to be true; and, indeed, was true, the demand of Humphreys
being for deserters from other ships than that to which
the men taken from the Chesapeake belonged. This he admitted,
except as to one Jenkins Radford, stated to be a
deserter from the Halifax. I told him that, even as to him,
we had the authority of the British Consul at Norfolk that
he was a deserter from a Merchantman. This he seemed not
to be aware of, and said that if the fact was wrong, he could
not found a proceeding on it. He retired with an intimation
that he would revolve the subject and his instructions still
further, and see me when I pleased to intimate, which was
promised as soon as health permitted. His manner and
concluding remarks left it uncertain what determination he
would bring to the interview.
Tuesday, Feby 16.
Conversation.
Mr. Rose, in consequence of an offer to see him to-day,
called about 2 o'clock. It appeared that he did not consider
himself authorized to accede to either proposal for getting
over the difficulty respecting the disavowal required from the
and not discharging deserters. He was reminded
that this disavowal, as stated by him, was as much a departure
from the specific case of the Chesapeake as the mutual disavowals
proposed by me, being general as to deserters, and
not restricted to those entering on board the Chesapeake.
He seemed sensible of this, and manifested a disposition to
make it rather more limited; but proposed nothing; nor did he
revive the subject of disavowing Barron's answer; seeming to
be prepared for abandoning further informal conversations,
and leaving me to answer in form his note of the 26th ult.
This was promised as soon as my health, and some urgent
business, [meaning the despatch of the vessel waiting at New
York to carry letters, &c., to France and G. Britain,] would
permit; it being remarked to him that the hopes that an
answer would have been rendered unnecessary had prevented
me from particularly revolving even a suitable answer.
Monday, Feby 22.
Mr. Rose having signified by a note last evening, a wish for
an interview to-day, 2 oc. was named when he called for the
purpose.
His object appeared to be to express his hopes that a failure
of our negociations, might be still consistent with a future adjustment,
either here or in Engd and to speak of the difficulty
under which he should find himself in making known to
his Govt the points on which the failure wd have taken place;
as he could not give this explanation, after a refusal of his
preliminary, witht showing that he had departed from his
instructions. With these remarks he mingled expressions of
much solicitude that no unfavorable inferences might be
drawn from the obstacles arising from his instructions, and
that he might be instrumental in promoting a removal of
them, which he thought he could best do by personal communications
at London.
It was observed to him, that without meaning to express
his Govt understand the points on which the business failed,
by intimating that there were sufficient indications that if
the preliminary had been complied with or got over, the views
entertained by the Govt on those points wd have necessarily
produced a failure. It was intimated also that the place most
proper in itself for adjusting the matter was here, not in
G. B. and that the propriety was strengthened by what had passed.
If, in the first instance, London had been proposed, it was
with a view to hasten the result.
Mutual observations were made pointing out the inconveniences
of referring the subject to a settlement under new
instructions: His attention was drawn to the experiments
which had been made to avoid delay, and it was repeated to
him that there was still a willingness to write a letter detached
from & subject to an acceptance of the reparation, in
which the principles & practice of the U. S. in the case of Deserters
could be stated; with the addition now authorized,
that an order had issued for discharging from the pub. ships
all British subjects. It was remarked that could not be mentioned
but in a certain way, such as such a letter wd admit,
because the order was not the result of either legal obligation
or of example; his Govt instantly refusing to discharge
Americans voluntarily accepting a bounty.
He manifested satisfaction at this course, & signified that
it could not fail to make agreeable impressions & promote
salutary objects. He was reminded that this was more than
his instructions aimed at: and it was for him to decide how
far it wd balance the objections to a departure from the letter
of them.
He professed to be gratified with the spirit of the conversation
but without any apparent change in the course he was to
pursue, and retired with an understanding, that I wd see him
at any time he might wish to resume it.
Feby 25.
Mr. Rose having yesterday asked an interview was afforded
that he would instead of the disavowal required as to
deserters, accept the information proposed to be given of the
principles & policy of this Govt on that subject, by suggesting,
that as this course would be inconsistent with his powers,
he should not act with candor towards us in so doing. He
re-iterated his regret that his powers were so limited, and
his belief that the orders issued to discharge all British subjects
from our public ships, would make great impression on
his Govt. Little was said in reply, further than repeating the
inconveniences resulting from such an issue to his mission, and
remarking on our disappot at the tenor of his instructions,
and the length we had prevailed on ourselves to go in order to
surmount the difficulties they occasioned. It was intimated
as one of the inconvenient effects of the actual posture of the
business, that the President was sending a message to Congs
recommending an extension of precautionary measures
necessarily attended with expence &c.
Points for Mr. Rose. Wednesday, [Feby 24.]
Evils of degradation mutually to be shunned
after acceeding to ye mode of separating cases of impressment
& of the Chesapeake, the demand of such preliminary the
less looked for, so categorical & precise.
The recall of Procln founded on disavowal &c &c.
What is disavowed?—An act of unauthorised officer—and
principle of do, an avowal never presumed—but the contrary.
What to be recalled? Act of Govt itself, an act not of aggression
or of reparation; but of precaution—and referring
to wrongs prior to & wholly distinct from the affair of
Chesapeake.
To revoke the proclamation in face of the world, undr such
circumstances, would acknowledge it to be aggressive & wd
originate a reparation on our part instead of receiving one—
A degradation in fact the worst of all evils, and which a
to be imposed on it.
Do not wish to require cannot therefore perform, degrading
conditions.
Unless therefore some new turn to the subject must proceed
from oral to written communications. If a precise & categorical
preliminary shuts the door agst all chance and prospect,
delay is fruitless.
But if door not shut, it will be agreeable to find that the consequences
of a failure, are not suspended on an ultimatum of
such a character.
The revocation of the Procln impossible, witht extending
the disavowal, and assurances, to the several cases which led
to it and referred to in it, & many of them long lying before
your Govt without notice or promise of future security to
the U. S.[2]
Tho' the time unexpected by the P—, no purpose, by hasty
issue on a particular point not perfectly understood, to preclude
amicable explanations, and which might possibly lead
to a favorable result.
General and mutual reasons vs. war—interest, harmony
&c., &c.
With this view, U. S. desired to settle everything.
Union of Impressments and Chesapeake favorable thereto,
and facilitates latter.
Separation yielded, to the views taken of the subject by G.
B. and to his Mission.
Surprize at; at splitting the case of Chesapeake—entirely
statu quo. Talk Proclamation—precaution vs. other wrongs
—Bradly—Whitby—Love—French ship burnt—Dougl
seiz. of Norfk—Continental disobedience to Procln.
| The writings of James Madison, | |