University of Virginia Library

Wednesday July 11. In Convention.

Mr. Randolph's motion requiring the Legislre. to
take a periodical census for the purpose of redressing
inequalities in the Representation was resumed.

Mr. Sherman was agst. Shackling the Legislature
too much. We ought to choose wise & good men,
and then confide in them.

Mr. Mason. The greater the difficulty we find in
fixing a proper rule of Representation, the more
unwilling ought we to be, to throw the task from
ourselves on the Genl. Legistre. He did not object to
the conjectural ratio which was to prevail in the
outset; but considered a Revision from time to time
according to some permanent & precise standard as
essential to ye. fair representation required in the
1st. branch. According to the present population of
America, the Northn. part of it had a right to preponderate,
and he could not deny it. But he wished
it not to preponderate hereafter when the reason
no longer continued. From the nature of man we
may be sure that those who have power in their
hands will not give it up while they can retain it.

On the contrary we know that they will always when
they can rather increase it. If the S. States therefore
should have 3/4 of the people of America within
their limits, the Northern will hold fast the majority
of Representatives. 1/4 will govern the 3/4. The S.
States will complain; but they may complain from
generation to generation without redress. Unless
some principle therefore which will do justice to
them hereafter shall be inserted in the Constitution,
disagreable as the declaration was to him, he
must declare he could neither vote for the system
here, nor support it, in his State. Strong objections
had been drawn from the danger to the Atlantic
interests from new Western States. Ought
we to sacrifice what we know to be right in itself,
lest it should prove favorable to States which are
not yet in existence. If the Western States are
to be admitted into the Union, as they arise, they
must, he wd. repeat, be treated as equals, and subjected
to no degrading discriminations. They will
have the same pride & other passions which we have
and will either not unite with or will speedily revolt
from the Union, if they are not in all respects placed
on an equal footing with their brethern. It has been
said they will be poor, and unable to make equal
contributions to the general Treasury. He did not
know but that in time they would be both more
numerous & more wealthy than their Atlantic
brethren. The extent & fertility of their soil,
made this probable; and though Spain might for a
time deprive them of the natural outlet for their

productions, yet she will, because she must, finally
yield to their demands. He urged that numbers of
inhabitants; though not always a precise standard
of wealth was sufficiently so for every substantial
purpose.

Mr. Williamson was for making it a duty of the
Legislature to do what was right & not leaving it at
liberty to do or not to do it. He moved that Mr.
Randolph's propositions be postpond. in order to consider
the following "that in order to ascertain the
alterations that may happen in the population &
wealth of the several States, a census shall be taken
of the free white inhabitants and 3/5ths. of those of
other descriptions on the 1st. year after this Government
shall have been adopted and every——— year
thereafter; and that the Representation be regulated
accordingly."

Mr. Randolph agreed that Mr. Williamson's proposition
should stand in the place of his. He observed
that the ratio fixt for the 1st. meeting was a mere conjecture,
that it placed the power in the hands of that
part of America, which could not always be entitled
to it, that this power would not be voluntarily renounced;
and that it was consequently the duty of
the Convention to secure its renunciation when justice
might so require; by some constitutional provisions.
If equality between great & small States be inadmissible,
because in that case unequal numbers of
Constituents wd. be represented by equal number of
votes; was it not equally inadmissible that a larger
& more populous district of America should hereafter

have less representation, than a smaller & less populous
district. If a fair representation of the people
be not secured, the injustice of the Govt. will shake
it to its foundations. What relates to suffrage is
justly stated by the celebrated Montesquieu, as a
fundamental article in Republican Govt. If the
danger suggested by Mr. Govr. Morris be real, of advantage
being taken of the Legislature in pressing
moments, it was an additional reason, for tying their
hands in such a manner that they could not sacrifice
their trust to momentary considerations. Congs.
have pledged the public faith to New States, that
they shall be admitted on equal terms. They never
would or ought to accede on any other. The census
must be taken under the direction of the General
Legislature. The States will be too much interested
to take an impartial one for themselves.

Mr. Butler & Genl. Pinkney insisted that blacks
be included in the rule of Representation equally
with the whites; and for that purpose moved that
the words "three-fifths" be struck out.

Mr. Gerry thought that 3/5 of them was to say the
least the full proportion that could be admitted.

Mr. Ghorum. This ratio was fixed by Congs. as a
rule of taxation. Then it was urged by the Delegates
representing the States having slaves that
the blacks were still more inferior to freemen. At
present when the ratio of representation is to be
established, we are assured that they are equal to
freemen. The arguments on ye. former occasion
convinced him that 3/5 was pretty near the just

proportion and he should vote according to the same
opinion now.

Mr. Butler insisted that the labour of a slave in
S. Carola. was as productive & valuable as that of a
freeman in Massts., that as wealth was the great means
of defence and utility to the Nation they were equally
valuable to it with freemen; and that consequently
an equal representation ought to be allowed for them
in a Government which was instituted principally
for the protection of property, and was itself to be
supported by property.

Mr. Mason could not agree to the motion, notwithstanding
it was favorable to Virga. because he thought
it unjust. It was certain that the slaves were valuable,
as they raised the value of land, increased the
exports & imports, and of course the revenue, would
supply the means of feeding & supporting an army,
and might in cases of emergency become themselves
soldiers. As in these important respects they were
useful to the Community at large, they ought not
to be excluded from the estimate of Representation.
He could not however regard them as equal to freemen
and could not vote for them as such. He
added as worthy of remark, that the Southern States
have this peculiar species of property over & above
the other species of property common to all the
States.

Mr. Williamson reminded Mr. Ghorum that if the
Southn. States contended for the inferiority of blacks
to whites when taxation was in view, the Eastern
States on the same occasion contended for their

equality. He did not however either then or now
concur in either extreme, but approved of the ratio
of 3/5.

On Mr. Butler's motion for considering blacks as
equal to Whites in the apportionmt. of Representation

Massts. no. Cont. no. (N. Y. not on floor). N. J.
no. Pa. no. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no.
S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Mr. Govr. Morris said he had several objections
to the proposition of Mr. Williamson. 1. It fettered
the Legislature too much. 2. it would exclude some
States altogether who would not have a sufficient
number to entitle them to a single Representative.
3. it will not consist with the Resolution passed on
Saturday last authorizing the Legislature to adjust
the Representation from time to time on the principles
of population & wealth or with the principles
of equity. If slaves were to be considered as
inhabitants, not as wealth then the sd. Resolution
would not be pursued. If as wealth, then why is
no other wealth but slaves included? These objections
may perhaps be removed by amendments.
His great objection was that the number of inhabitants
was not a proper standard of wealth. The
amazing difference between the comparative numbers
& wealth of different countries, rendered all
reasoning superfluous on the subject. Numbers
might with greater propriety be deemed a measure
of strength, than of wealth, yet the late defence made
by G. Britain, agst. her numerous enemies proved in

the clearest manner, that it is entirely fallacious even
in this respect.

Mr. King thought there was great force in the objections
of Mr. Govr. Morris: he would however accede
to the proposition for the sake of doing something.

Mr. Rutlidge contended for the admission of
wealth in the estimate by which Representation
should be regulated. The Western States will not
be able to contribute in proportion to their numbers;
they shd. not therefore be represented in that proportion.
The Atlantic States will not concur in
such a plan. He moved that "at the end of———
years after the 1st. meeting of the Legislature, and
of every——— years thereafter, the Legislature shall
proportion the Representation according to the principles
of wealth & population."

Mr. Sherman thought the number of people alone
the best rule for measuring wealth as well as representation;
and that if the Legislature were to be
governed by wealth, they would be obliged to estimate
it by numbers. He was at first for leaving the
matter wholly to the discretion of the Legislature;
but he had been convinced by the observation of
(Mr. Randolph & Mr. Mason), that the periods & the
rule, of revising the Representation ought to be fixt
by the Constitution.

Mr. Reed thought the Legislature ought not to
be too much shackled. It would make the Constitution
like Religious Creeds, embarrassing to those
bound to conform to them & more likely to produce
dissatisfaction and scism, than harmony and union.

Mr. Mason objected to Mr. Rutlidge's motion, as
requiring of the Legislature something too indefinite
& impracticable, and leaving them a pretext for
doing nothing.

Mr. Wilson had himself no objection to leaving
the Legislature entirely at liberty. But considered
wealth as an impracticable rule.

Mr. Ghorum. If the Convention who are comparatively
so little biassed by local views are so
much perplexed, How can it be expected that the
Legislature hereafter under the full biass of those
views, will be able to settle a standard. He was
convinced by the arguments of others & his own
reflections, that the Convention ought to fix some
standard or other.

Mr. Govr. Morris. The argts. of others & his own
reflections had led him to a very different conclusion.
If we can't agree on a rule that will be just at
this time, how can we expect to find one that will
be just in all times to come. Surely those who
come after us will judge better of things present,
than we can of things future. He could not persuade
himself that numbers would be a just rule at any
time. The remarks of (Mr. Mason) relative to the
Western Country had not changed his opinion on that
head. Among other objections it must be apparent
they would not be able to furnish men equally enlightened,
to share in the administration of our common
interests. The Busy haunts of men not the
remote wilderness, was the proper school of political
Talents. If the Western people get the power into

their hands they will ruin the Atlantic interests.
The Back members are always most averse to the
best measures. He mentioned the case of Pena.
formerly. The lower part of the State had ye. power
in the first instance. They kept it in yr. own hands
& the country was ye. better for it. Another objection
with him agst. admitting the blacks into the
census, was that the people of Pena. would revolt
at the idea of being put on a footing with slaves.
They would reject any plan that was to have such
an effect. Two objections had been raised agst.
leaving the adjustment of the Representation from
time, to time, to the discretion of the Legislature.
The 1. was, they would be unwilling to revise it at
all. The 2 that by referring, to wealth they would
be bound by a rule which if willing, they would be
unable to execute. The 1st. objn. distrusts their
fidelity. But if their duty, their honor & their oaths
will not bind them, let us not put into their hands
our liberty, and all our other great interests; let us
have no Govt. at all. 2. If these ties will bind them,
we need not distrust the practicability of the rule.
It was followed in part by the Come. in the apportionment
of Representatives yesterday reported to the
House. The best course that could be taken would
be to leave the interests of the people to the Representatives
of the people.

Mr. Madison was not a little surprised to hear this
implicit confidence urged by a member who on all
occasions, had inculcated so strongly, the political
depravity of men, and the necessity of checking one

vice and interest by opposing to them another vice
& interest. If the Representatives of the people
would be bound by the ties he had mentioned, what
need was there of a Senate? What of a Revisionary
power? But his reasoning was not only inconsistent
with his former reasoning, but with itself. At
the same time that he recommended this implicit
confidence to the Southern States in the Northern
majority, he was still more zealous in exhorting all
to a jealousy of a Western Majority. To reconcile
the gentln. with himself, it must be imagined
that he determined the human character by the
points of the compass. The truth was that all men
having power ought to be distrusted to a certain degree.
The case of Pena. had been mentioned where
it was admitted that those who were possessed of
the power in the original settlement, never admitted
the new settlemts. to a due share of it. England
was a still more striking example. The power
there had long been in the hands of the boroughs,
of the minority; who had opposed & defeated every
reform which had been attempted. Virga. was in
a lesser degree another example. With regard to
the Western States, he was clear & firm in opinion,
that no unfavorable distinctions were admissible
either in point of justice or policy. He thought
also that the hope of contributions to the Treasy.
from them had been much underrated. Future
contributions it seemed to be understood on all
hands, would be principally levied on imports &
exports. The extent and fertility of the Western
Soil would for a long time give to agriculture a
preference over manufactures. Trials would be
repeated till some articles could be raised from it
that would bear a transportation to places where
they could be exchanged for imported manufactures.
Whenever the Mississpi should be opened to them,
which would of necessity be ye. case as soon as their
population would subject them to any considerable
share of the Public burden, imposts on their trade
could be collected with less expence & greater
certainty, than on that of the Atlantic States. In
the mean time, as their supplies must pass through
the Atlantic States, their contributions would be
levied in the same manner with those of the Atlantic
States. He could not agree that any substantial
objection lay agst. fixg. numbers for the perpetual
standard of Representation. It was said that Representation
& taxation were to go together; that
taxation and wealth ought to go together, that
population & wealth were not measures of each other.
He admitted that in different climates, under different
forms of Govt. and in different stages of civilization
the inference was perfectly just. He would
admit that in no situation, numbers of inhabitants
were an accurate measure of wealth. He contended
however that in the U. States it was sufficiently so
for the object in contemplation. Altho' their climate
varied considerably, yet as the Govts. the laws,
and the manners of all were nearly the same, and
the intercourse between different parts perfectly
free, population, industry, arts, and the value of
labour, would constantly tend to equalize themselves.
The value of labour might be considered as
the principal criterion of wealth and ability to support
taxes; and this would find its level in different
places where the intercourse should be easy & free,
with as much certainty as the value of money or any
other thing. Wherever labour would yield most,
people would resort, till the competition should
destroy the inequality. Hence it is that the people
are constantly swarming from the more to the less
populous places—from Europe to Ama.—from the
Northn. & Middle parts of the U. S. to the Southern
& Western. They go where land is cheaper, because
there labour is dearer. If it be true that the same
quantity of produce raised on the banks of the Ohio
is of less value, than on the Delaware, it is also true
that the same labor will raise twice or thrice, the
quantity in the former, that it will raise in the latter
situation.

Col. Mason. Agreed with Mr. Govr. Morris that
we ought to leave the interests of the people to the
Representatives of the people; but the objection
was that the Legislature would cease to be the Representatives
of the people. It would continue so
no longer than the States now containing a majority
of the people should retain that majority. As soon
as the Southern & Western population should predominate,
which must happen in a few years, the
power wd. be in the hands of the minority, and would
never be yielded to the majority, unless provided for
by the Constitution.

On the Question for postponing Mr. Williamson's
motion, in order to consider that of Mr. Rutlidge,
it passed in the negative, Massts. ay. Cont. no.
N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. no. N. C.
no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On the question on the first clause of Mr. Williamson's
motion as to taking a census of the free inhabitants,
it passed in the affirmative; Massts. ay. Cont.
ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay.
N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

the next clause as to 3/5 of the negroes considered

Mr. King being much opposed to fixing numbers
as the rule of representation, was particularly so
on account of the blacks. He thought the admission
of them along with Whites at all, would excite great
discontents among the States having no slaves.
He had never said as to any particular point that
he would in no event acquiesce in & support it;
but he wd. say that if any in case such a declaration
was to be made by him, it would be in this. He
remarked that in the temporary allotment of Representatives
made by the Committee, the Southern
States had received more than the number of their
white & Three fifths of their black inhabitants entitled
them to.

Mr. Sherman. S. Carola. had not more beyond her
proportion than N. York & N. Hampshire, nor
either of them more than was necessary in order to
avoid fractions or reducing them below their proportions.
Georgia had more; but the rapid growth
of that State seemed to justify it. In general the

allotment might not be just, but considering all
circumstances, he was satisfied with it.

Mr. Ghorum. supported the propriety of establishing
numbers as the rule. He said that in Massts. estimates
had been taken in the different towns, and
that persons had been curious enough to compare
these estimates with the respective numbers of
people; and it had been found even including Boston,
that the most exact proportion prevailed between
numbers & property. He was aware that
there might be some weight in what had fallen from
his colleague, as to the umbrage which might be taken
by the people of the Eastern States. But he recollected
that when the proposition of Congs. for
changing the 8th. art: of the Confedn. was before the
Legislature of Massts. the only difficulty then was to
satisfy them that the negroes ought not to have
been counted equally with whites instead of being
counted in ratio of three-fifths only.[123]

Mr. Wilson did not well see on what principle the
admission of blacks in the proportion of three fifths
could be explained. Are they admitted as Citizens?
then why are they not admitted on an equality
with White Citizens? are they admitted as property?
then why is not other property admitted into
the computation? These were difficulties however
which he thought must be overruled by the necessity
of compromise. He had some apprehensions also
from the tendency of the blending of the blacks with

the whites, to give disgust to the people of Pena.,
as had been intimated by his Colleague (Mr. Govr.
Morris). But he differed from him in thinking
numbers of inhabts. so incorrect a measure of wealth.
He had seen the Western settlemts. of Pa. and on a
comparison of them with the City of Philada. could
discover little other difference, than that property
was more unequally divided among individuals here
than there. Taking the same number in the aggregate
in the two situations he believed there would
be little difference in their wealth and ability to
contribute to the public wants.

Mr. Govr. Morris was compelled to declare himself
reduced to the dilemma of doing injustice to the
Southern States or to human nature, and he must
therefore do it to the former. For he could never
agree to give such encouragement to the Slave Trade
as would be given by allowing them a representation
for their negroes, and he did not believe those States
would ever confederate on terms that would deprive
them of that trade.

On Question for agreeing to include 3/5 of the blacks
Massts. no. Cont. ay. N. J. no. Pa. no. Del. no.
Mard[124] no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

On the question as to taking census "the first
year after the meeting of the Legislature"

Massts. ay. Cont. no. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay.
Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. ay. Geo. no

On filling the blank for the periodical census,
with 15 years. Agreed to nem. con.

Mr. Madison moved to add, after "15 years," the
words "at least" that the Legislature might anticipate
when circumstances were likely to render a
particular year inconvenient.

On this motion for adding "at least," it passed
in the negative the States being equally divided.
Mas. ay. Cont. no. N. J. no. Pa. no. Del. no.
Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

A Change of the phraseology of the other clause
so as to read, "and the Legislature shall alter or augment
the representation accordingly," was agreed to
nem. con.

On the question on the whole resolution of Mr.
Williamson as amended,

Mas. no. Cont. no. N. J. no. Del. no. Md. no.
Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.