University of Virginia Library

Tuesday June 12th. in Committee of Whole

The Question taken on the Resolution 15, to wit,
referring the new system to the people of the
States for ratification it passed in the affirmative
Massts. ay. Cont. no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. Pa.[72] ay.
Del. divd. Md. divd. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay.
Geo. ay.

Mr. Sharman & Mr. Elseworth moved to fill the
blank left in the 4th. Resolution for the periods of
electing the members of the first branch with the
words, "every year;" Mr. Sharman observing that
he did it in order to bring on some question.

Mr. Rutlidge proposed "every two years."

Mr. Jennifer[73] propd., "every three years," observing
that the too great frequency of elections rendered
the people indifferent to them, and made the
best men unwilling to engage in so precarious a
service.

Mr. Madison seconded the motion for three years.
Instability is one of the great vices of our republics,
to be remedied. Three years will be necessary, in a
Government so extensive, for members to form any
knowledge of the various interests of the States to
which they do not belong, and of which they can
know but little from the situation and affairs of their
own. One year will be almost consumed in preparing
for and travelling to & from the seat of national
business.

Mr. Gerry. The people of New England will
never give up the point of annual elections, they
know of the transition made in England from triennial

to septennial elections, and will consider such
an innovation here as the prelude to a like usurpation.
He considered annual elections as the only
defence of the people agst. tyranny. He was as much
agst. a triennial House as agst. a hereditary Executive.

Mr. Madison, observed that if the opinions of the
people were to be our guide, it wd. be difficult to say
what course we ought to take. No member of the
Convention could say what the opinions of his Constituents
were at this time; much less could he say
what they would think if possessed of the information
& lights possessed by the members here; & still
less what would be their way of thinking 6 or 12
months hence. We ought to consider what was
right & necessary in itself for the attainment of a
proper Governmt. A plan adjusted to this idea will
recommend itself—The respectability of this convention
will give weight to their recommendation of it.
Experience will be constantly urging the adoption
of it, and all the most enlightened & respectable
citizens will be its advocates. Should we fall short
of the necessary & proper point, this influential class
of Citizens, will be turned against the plan, and little
support in opposition to them can be gained to it
from the unreflecting multitude.

Mr. Gerry repeated his opinion that it was necessary
to consider what the people would approve.
This had been the policy of all Legislators. If the
reasoning of Mr. Madison were just, and we supposed
a limited Monarchy the best form in itself, we
ought to recommend it, tho' the genius of the people

was decidedly adverse to it, and having no hereditary
distinctions among us, we were destitute of the
essential materials for such an innovation.

On the question for the triennial election of the
1st. branch

Mass. no. (Mr. King ay.) Mr. Ghorum wavering.
Cont. no. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay.
Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

The words requiring members of ye. 1st. branch to
be of the age of——— years were struck out Maryland
alone no The words "liberal compensation for
members," being considd. Mr. Madison moves to
insert the words, "& fixt." He observed that it
would be improper to leave the members of the Natl.
legislature to be provided for by the State Legisls.,
because it would create an improper dependence;
and to leave them to regulate their own wages, was
an indecent thing, and might in time prove a dangerous
one. He thought wheat or some other article
of which the average price throughout a reasonable
period preceding might be settled in some convenient
mode, would form a proper standard.

Col. Mason seconded the motion; adding that it
would be improper for other reasons to leave the
wages to be regulated by the States. 1. the different
States would make different provision for their representatives,
and an inequality would be felt among
them, whereas he thought they ought to be in all
respects equal. 2. the parsimony of the States might
reduce the provision so low that as had already happened
in choosing delegates to Congress, the question

would be not who were most fit to be chosen, but
who were most willing to serve.

On the question for inserting the words, "and
fixt"

Massts. no. Cont. no. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. Pa.
ay. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no.
Geo. ay.

Docr Franklyn said he approved of the amendment
just made for rendering the salaries as fixed
as possible; but disliked the word "liberal." He
would prefer the word moderate if it was necessary
to substitute any other. He remarked the tendency
of abuses in every case, to grow of themselves when
once begun, and related very pleasantly the progression
in ecclesiastical benefices, from the first
departure from the gratuitous provision for the
Apostles, to the establishment of the papal system.
The word "liberal" was struck out nem con.

On the motion of Mr. Pierce, that the wages should
be paid out of the National Treasury, Massts. ay. Ct.
no. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. ay.
Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. G. ay.

Question on the clause relating to term of service
& compensation of 1st. branch,

Massts. ay. Ct. no. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. Pa. ay.
Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

On a question for striking out the "ineligibility of
members of the Natl. Legis: to State offices,"

Massts. divd. Cont. ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. no. Pa.
no. Del. no. Md. divd. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay.
Geo. no.

On the question for agreeing to the clause as
amended,

Massts. ay. Cont. no. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. Pa.
ay. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C.
ay. Geo. ay.

On a question for making members of the Natl.
Legislature ineligible to any office under the Nat
Govt. for the term of 3 years after ceasing to be
members,

Massts. no. Cont. no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. Pa. no.
Del. no. Md. ay. Va. no. N.C. no. S. C. no. Geo.
no.

On the question for such ineligibility for one year,
Massts. ay. Ct. ay. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. Pa. ay.
Del. ay. Md. divd. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay.
Geo. no.

On question moved by Mr. Pinckney, for striking
out "incapable of re-election into 1st. branch of the
Natl. Legisl. for——— years, and subject to recall"
agd. to nem. con.

On question for striking out from the Resol:
5 the words requiring members of the Senatorial
branch to be of the age of——— years at least

Massts. no. Cont. ay. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. Pa.
ay. Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. divd. S. C.
no. Geo. divd.

On the question for rilling the blank with 30
years as the qualification; it was agreed to,

Massts. ay. Ct. no. N. Y. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay.
Del. no. Md. ay. Va. ay. N.C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

Mr. Spaight moved to fill the blank for the duration

of the appointmts. to the 2d. branch of the National
Legislature with the words" 7 years.

Mr. Sherman, thought 7 years too long. He
grounded his opposition he said on the principle that
if they did their duty well, they would be reelected.
And if they acted amiss, an earlier opportunity
should be allowed for getting rid of them. He preferred
5 years which wd. be between the terms of the
1st. branch & of the executive

Mr. Pierce proposed 3 years. 7 years would raise
an alarm. Great mischiefs had arisen in England
from their septennial Act which was reprobated by
most of their patriotic Statesmen.

Mr. Randolph was for the term of 7 years. The
democratic licentiousness of the State Legislatures
proved the necessity of a firm Senate. The object
of this 2d. branch is to controul the democratic branch
of the Natl. Legislature. If it be not a firm body,
the other branch being more numerous, and coming
immediately from the people, will overwhelm it.
The Senate of Maryland constituted on like principles
had been scarcely able to stem the popular
torrent. No mischief can be apprehended, as the
concurrence of the other branch, and in some measure,
of the Executive, will in all cases be necessary.
A firmness & independence may be the more necessary
also in this branch, as it ought to guard the
Constitution agst. encroachments of the Executive
who will be apt to form combinations with the demagogues
of the popular branch.

Mr. Madison, considered 7 years as a term by no

means too long. What we wished was to give to
the Govt. that stability which was every where called
for, and which the Enemies of the Republican form
alledged to be inconsistent with its nature. He was
not afraid of giving too much stability by the term
of Seven years. His fear was that the popular
branch would still be too great an overmatch for it.
It was to be much lamented that we had so little
direct experience to guide us. The Constitution of
Maryland was the only one that bore any analogy
to this part of the plan. In no instance had the
Senate of Maryd. created just suspicions of danger
from it. In some instances perhaps it may have
erred by yielding to the H. of Delegates. In every
instance of their opposition to the measures of the
H. of D. they had had with them the suffrages of
the most enlightened and impartial people of the
other States as well as of their own. In the States
where the Senates, were chosen in the same manner
as the other branches, of the Legislature, and held
their seats for 4 years, the institution was found to
be no check whatever agst. the instabilities of the
other branches. He conceived it to be of great importance
that a stable & firm Govt., organized in the
republican form should be held out to the people.
If this be not done, and the people be left to judge
of this species of Govt. by ye. operations of the defective
systems under which they now live, it is
much to be feared the time is not distant when, in
universal disgust, they will renounce the blessing
which they have purchased at so dear a rate, and
be ready for any change that may be proposed to
them.

On the question for "seven years" as the term for
the 2d. branch Massts divided. (Mr. King, Mr. Ghorum
ay, Mr. Gerry, Mr. Strong, no) Cont. no. N. Y. divd.
N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C.
ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Mr. Butler and Mr. Rutlidge proposed that the
members of the 2d branch should be entitled to no
salary or compensation for their services. On the
question,[74] —

Massts. divd. Cont. ay. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P.
no. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. ay.
Geo. no.

It was then moved & agreed that the clauses respecting
the stipends & ineligibility of the 2d. branch
be the same as, of the 1st branch:—Con: disagreeing
to the ineligibility.

It was moved & 2ded. to alter the Resol: 9. so as
to read "that the jurisdiction of the supreme tribunal
shall be to hear & determine in the dernier
resort, all piracies, felonies, &c."

It was moved & 2ded. to strike out "all piracies &
felonies on the high seas," which was agreed to.

It was moved & agreed to strike out "all captures
from an enemy."

It was moved & agreed to strike out "other

States" and insert "two distinct States of the
Union"

It was moved & agreed to postpone the consideration
of the Resolution 9, relating to the Judiciary:

The Come. then rose & the House Adjourned