University of Virginia Library

Tuesday, July 10. in Convention.

Mr. King reported from the Come. yesterday appointed
that the States at the 1st. meeting of the
General Legislature, should be represented by 65
members, in the following proportions, to wit N.
Hamshire by 3, Massts. 8, R. Isd. 1, Cont. 5, N. Y. 6,
N. J. 4, Pa. 8, Del. 1, Md. 6, Va. 10, N. C. 5, S. C. 5,
Georgia 3.

Mr. Rutlidge moved that N. Hampshire be reduced

from 3 to 2. members. Her numbers did not entitle
her to 3 and it was a poor State.

Genl. Pinkney seconds the motion.

Mr. King. N. Hamshire has probably more than
120,000 Inhabts. and has an extensive Country of
tolerable fertility. Its inhabts therefore may be expected
to increase fast. He remarked that the four
Eastern States, having 800,000 souls, have 1/3 fewer
representatives than the four Southern States, having
not more than 700,000 souls, rating the blacks as 5
for 3. The Eastern people will advert to these circumstances,
and be dissatisfied. He believed them
to be very desirous of uniting with their Southern
brethern, but did not think it prudent to rely so far
on that disposition as to subject them to any gross inequality.
He was fully convinced that the question
concerning a difference of interests did not lie where
it had hitherto been discussed, between the great
& small States; but between the Southern & Eastern.
For this reason he had been ready to yield
something in the proportion of representatives for
the security of the Southern. No principle would
justify the giving them a majority. They were
brought as near an equality as was possible. He
was not averse to giving them a still greater security,
but did not see how it could be done.

Genl. Pinkney. The Report before it was committed
was more favorable to the S. States than as
it now stands. If they are to form so considerable
a minority, and the regulation of trade is to be given
to the Genl. Government, they will be nothing more

than overseers for the Northern States. He did not
expect the S. States to be raised to a majority of
representatives, but wished them to have something
like an equality. At present by the alterations
of the Come. in favor of the N. States they are removed
farther from it than they were before. One
member indeed had been added to Virga. which he
was glad of as he considered her as a Southern State.
He was glad also that the members of Georgia were
increased.

Mr. Williamson was not for reducing N. Hampshire
from 3 to 2, but for reducing some others. The
Southn. Interest must be extremely endangered by
the present arrangement. The Northn. States are to
have a majority in the first instance and the means
of perpetuating it.

Mr. Dayton observed that the line between Northn.
& Southern interest had been improperly drawn;
that Pa. was the dividing State, there being six on
each side of her.

Genl. Pinkney urged the reduction, dwelt on the
superior wealth of the Southern States, and insisted
on its having its due weight in the Government.

Mr. Govt. Morris regretted the turn of the debate.
The States he found had many Representatives on
the floor. Few he fears were to be deemed the
Representatives of America. He thought the Southern
States have by the report more than their share
of representation. Property ought to have its
weight, but not all the weight. If the Southn. States
are to supply money. The Northn. States are to spill

their blood. Besides, the probable Revenue to be
expected from the S. States has been greatly overrated.
He was agst. reducing N. Hampshire.

Mr. Randolph was opposed to a reduction of N.
Hampshire, not because she had a full title to three
members; but because it was in his contemplation
1. to make it the duty instead of leaving it in the
discretion of the Legislature to regulate the representation
by a periodical census. 2. to require more
than a bare majority of votes in the Legislature in
certain cases & particularly in commercial cases.

On the question for reducing N. Hampshire from
3 to 2 Represents. it passed in the negative

Massts. no. Cont. no. N. J. no. Pa. no. Del. no.
Md. no. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.[122]

Genl. Pinkney and Mr. Alexr. Martin moved that 6
Reps. instead of 5 be allowed to N. Carolina.

On the Question, it passed in the negative

Massts. no. Cont. no. N. J. no. Pa. no. Del. no.
Md. no. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Genl. Pinkney & Mr. Butler made the same motion
in favor of S. Carolina

On the Question it passed in the negative

Massts. no. Cont. no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. Pa.
no. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay.
Geo. ay.

Genl. Pinckney & Mr. Houston moved that Georgia
be allowed 4 instead of 3 Reps. urging the unexampled
celerity of its population. On the Question,
it passed in the negative

Massts. no. Cont. no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. Pa. no.
Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay.
Geo. ay.

Mr. Madison, moved that the number allowed to
each State be doubled. A majority of a Quorum of 65
members, was too small a number to represent the
whole inhabitants of the U. States; They would not
possess enough of the confidence of the people, and
wd. be too sparsely taken from the people, to bring
with them all the local information which would be
frequently wanted. Double the number will not
be too great, even with the future additions from
New States. The additional expence was too inconsiderable
to be regarded in so important a case.
And as far as the augmentation might be unpopular
on that score, the objection was overbalanced by its
effect on the hopes of a greater number of the popular
candidates.

Mr. Elseworth urged the objection of expence, &
that the greater the number, the more slowly would
the business proceed; and the less probably be
decided as it ought, at last. He thought the number
of Representatives too great in most of the State
Legislatures; and that a large number was less necessary
in the Genl. Legislature than in those of the
States, as its business would relate to a few great
national Objects only.

Mr. Sherman would have preferred 50 to 65. The
great distance they will have to travel will render
their attendance precarious and will make it difficult
to prevail on a sufficient number of fit men to

undertake the service. He observed that the expected
increase from new States also deserved consideration.

Mr. Gerry was for increasing the number beyond
65. The larger the number, the less the danger of
their being corrupted. The people are accustomed
to & fond of a numerous representation, and will
consider their rights as better secured by it. The
danger of excess in the number may be guarded
agst. by fixing a point within which the number shall
always be kept.

Col. Mason admitted that the objection drawn from
the consideration of expence, had weight both in
itself, and as the people might be affected by it.
But he thought it outweighed by the objections agst.
the smallness of the number. 38, will he supposes,
as being a majority of 65. form a quorum. 20 will
be a majority of 38. This was certainly too small
a number to make laws for America. They would
neither bring with them all the necessary information
relative to various local interests, nor possess
the necessary confidence of the people. After
doubling the number, the laws might still be made
by so few as almost to be objectionable on that account.

Mr. Read was in favor of the Motion. Two of the
States (Del. & R. I.) would have but a single member
if the aggregate number should remain at 65. and in
case of accident to either of these one State wd. have
no representative present to give explanations or
informations of its interests or wishes. The people

would not place their confidence in so small a number.
He hoped the objects of the Genl. Govt. would be
much more numerous than seemed to be expected
by some gentlemen, and that they would become
more & more so. As to New States the highest
number of Reps. for the whole might be limited, and
all danger of excess thereby prevented.

Mr. Rutlidge opposed the motion. The Representatives
were too numerous in all the States. The full
number allotted to the States may be expected to attend,
& the lowest possible quorum shd. not therefore
be considered. The interests of their Constituents
will urge their attendance too strongly for it to be
omitted: and he supposed the Genl. Legislature would
not sit more than 6 or 8 weeks in the year.

On the Question for doubling the number, it passed
in the negative

Masts. no. Cont. no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. Pa. no.
Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. no. S. C. no.
Geo. no.

On the question for agreeing to the apportionment
of Reps. as amended by the last committee, it
passed in the affirmative

Mas. ay. Cont. ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay.
Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no.
Geo. no.

Mr. Broom gave notice to the House that he had
concurred with a reserve to himself of an intention
to claim for his State an equal voice in the 2d. branch;
which he thought could not be denied after this concession
of the small States as to the first branch.

Mr. Randolph moved as an amendment to the
report of the Comme. of five "that in order to ascertain
the alterations in the population & wealth of the
several States the Legislature should be required to
cause a census, and estimate to be taken within one
year after its first meeting; and every——— years
thereafter, and that the Legislre. arrange the Representation
accordingly."

Mr. Govr. Morris opposed it as fettering the Legislature
too much. Advantage may be taken of it
in time of war or the apprehension of it, by new
States to extort particular favors. If the mode was
to be fixed for taking a Census, it might certainly be
extremely inconvenient: if unfixt the Legislature
may use such a mode as will defeat the object: and
perpetuate the inequality. He was always agst. such
shackles on the Legislre. They had been found very
pernicious in most of the State Constitutions. He
dwelt much on the danger of throwing such a preponderancy
into the Western Scale, suggesting that
in time the Western people wd. outnumber the Atlantic
States. He wished therefore to put it in the
power of the latter to keep a majority of votes in
their own hands. It was objected he said that if
the Legislre. are left at liberty, they will never readjust
the Representation. He admitted that this was
possible; but he did not think it probable unless the
reasons agst. a revision of it were very urgent & in
this case, it ought not to be done.

It was moved to postpone the proposition of Mr.
Randolph in order to take up the following, viz.

"that the Committee of Eleven, to whom was referred
the report of the Committee of five on the
subject of Representation, be requested to furnish
the Convention with the principles on which they
grounded the Report," which was disagreed to;
S. C. alone voting in the affirmative.

Adjourned