University of Virginia Library

Monday July 2d. in Convention.

On the question for allowing each State one vote
in the second branch as moved by Mr. Elseworth,
Massts. no. Cont. ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. no.
Del. ay. Md. ay. Mr. Jenifer being not present Mr.
Martin alone voted Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no.
Geo. divd. Mr. Houston no. Mr. Baldwin ay.

Mr. Pinkney thought an equality of votes in the
2d. branch inadmissible. At the same time candor
obliged him to admit that the large States would
feel a partiality for their own Citizens & give them
a preference, in appointments: that they might also
find some common points in their Commercial interests,
and promote treaties favorable to them. There
is a real distinction [between] the Northern & Southn.
interests. N. Carola. S. Carol: & Geo. in their Rice
& Indigo had a peculiar interest which might be
sacrificed. How then shall the larger States be prevented
from administering the Genl. Govt. as they
please, without being themselves unduly subjected
to the will of the smaller? By allowing them some
but not a full, proportion. He was extremely
anxious that something should be done, considering
this as the last appeal to a regular experiment.
Congs. have failed in almost every effort for an
amendment of the federal System. Nothing has

prevented a dissolution of it, but the appointmt. of
this Convention; & he could not express his alarms
for the consequence of such an event. He read his
motion, to form the States into classes, with an apportionment
of Senators among them (see Art: 4, of
his plan).

General Pinkney. was willing the motion might
be considered. He did not entirely approve it. He
liked better the motion of Docr. Franklin (which see
Saturday June 30). Some Compromise seemed to
be necessary, the States being exactly divided on the
question for an equality of votes in the 2d. branch.
He proposed that a Committee consisting of a member
from each State should be appointed to devise &
report some compromise.

Mr. L. Martin had no objection to a commitment,
but no modifications whatever could reconcile the
Smaller States to the least diminution of their equal
Sovereignty.

Mr. Sharman. We are now at a full stop, and nobody
he supposed meant that we shd. break up without
doing something. A committee he thought
most likely to hit on some expedient.

[117] Mr. Govr. Morris, thought a Come. adviseable as the
Convention had been equally divided. He had a
stronger reason also. The mode of appointing the
2d. branch tended he was sure to defeat the object of
it. What is this object? To check the precipitation,
changeableness, and excesses of the first branch.

Every man of observation had seen in the democratic
branches of the State Legislatures, precipitation—
in Congress changeableness, in every department
excesses agst. personal liberty private property &
personal safety. What qualities are necessary to
constitute a check in this case? Abilities and virtue,
are equally necessary in both branches. Something
more then is now wanted, 1. the checking
branch must have a personal interest in checking the
other branch, one interest must be opposed to another
interest. Vices as they exist, must be turned
agst. each other. 2. It must have great personal
property, it must have the aristocratic spirit; it
must love to lord it thro' pride. Pride is indeed the
great principle that actuates both the poor & the
rich. It is this principle which in the former resists,
in the latter abuses authority. 3. It should be independent.
In Religion the Creature is apt to forget
its Creator. That it is otherwise in Political Affairs,
the late debates here are an unhappy proof. The
aristocratic body, should be as independent & as
firm as the democratic. If the members of it are to
revert to a dependence on the democratic choice,
the democratic scale will preponderate. All the
guards contrived by America have not restrained
the Senatorial branches of the Legislatures from a
servile complaisance to the democratic. If the 2d.
branch is to be dependent we are better without it.
To make it independent, it should be for life. It
will then do wrong, it will be said. He believed so;
He hoped so. The Rich will strive to establish their
dominion & enslave the rest. They always did.
They always will. The proper security agst them is
to form them into a separate interest. The two
forces will then controul each other. Let the rich
mix with the poor and in a Commercial Country,
they will establish an Oligarchy. Take away commerce,
and the democracy will triumph. Thus it
has been all the world over. So it will be among us.
Reason tells us we are but men: and we are not to
expect any particular interference of Heaven in our
favor. By thus combining & setting apart, the
aristocratic interest, the popular interest will be
combined agst. it. There will be a mutual check and
mutual security. 4. An independence for life, involves
the necessary permanency. If we change
our measures nobody will trust us: and how avoid a
change of measures, but by avoiding a change of
men. Ask any man if he confides in Congs. if he
confides in the State of Pena. if he will lend his money
or enter into contract? He will tell you no. He
sees no stability. He can repose no confidence. If
G. B. were to explain her refusal to treat with us,
the same reasoning would be employed.—He disliked
the exclusion of the 2d. branch from holding
offices. It is dangerous. It is like the imprudent
exclusion of the military officers during the war,
from civil appointments. It deprives the Executive
of the principal source of influence. If danger be
apprehended from the Executive what a left-handed
way is this of obviating it? If the son, the brother
or the friend can be appointed, the danger may be
even increased, as the disqualified father &c. can
then boast of a disinterestedness which he does not
possess. Besides shall the best, the most able, the
most virtuous citizens not be permitted to hold
offices? Who then are to hold them? He was also
agst. paying the Senators. They will pay themselves
if they can. If they can not they will be rich and
can do without it. Of such the 2d. branch ought to
consist; and none but such can compose it if they
are not to be paid—He contended that the Executive
should appoint the Senate & fill up vacancies. This
gets rid of the difficulty in the present question.
You may begin with any ratio you please; it will
come to the same thing. The members being independt.
& for life, may be taken as well from one
place as from another.—It should be considered too
how the scheme could be carried through the States.
He hoped there was strength of mind eno' in this
House to look truth in the face. He did not hesitate
therefore to say that loaves & fishes must bribe the
Demagogues. They must be made to expect higher
offices under the general than the State Govts. A
Senate for life will be a noble bait. Without such
captivating prospects, the popular leaders will oppose
& defeat the plan. He perceived that the 1st.
branch was to be chosen by the people of the States;
the 2d. by those chosen by the people. Is not here a
Govt. by the States, a Governt. by Compact between
Virga. in the 1st. & 2d. branch, Massts. in the 1st & 2d.
branch &c. This is going back to mere treaty. It
it no Govt. at all. It is altogether dependent on the
States, and will act over again the part which Congs
has acted. A firm Governt. alone can protect our
liberties. He fears the influence of the rich. They
will have the same effect here as elsewhere if we do
not by such a Govt. keep them within their proper
sphere. We should remember that the people never
act from reason alone. The Rich will take the
advantage of their passions & make these the instruments
for oppressing them. The Result of the Contest
will be a violent aristocracy, or a more violent
despotism. The schemes of the Rich will be favored
by the extent of the Country. The people in such
distant parts cannot communicate & act in concert.
They will be the dupes of those who have more
knowledge & intercourse. The only security agst.
encroachments will be a select & sagacious body of
men, instituted to watch agst. them on all sides. He
meant only to hint these observations, without
grounding any motion on them.

Mr. Randolph favored the commitment though he
did not expect much benefit from the expedient. He
animadverted on the warm & rash language of Mr.
Bedford on Saturday; reminded the small States
that if the large States should combine some danger
of which he did not deny there would be a check in
the revisionary power of the Executive, and intimated
that in order to render this still more effectual,
he would agree that in the choice of an Executive
each State should have an equal vote. He was persuaded
that two such opposite bodies as Mr. Morris
had planned, could never long co-exist. Dissentions

would arise, as has been seen even between
the Senate and H. of Delegates in Maryland, appeals
would be made to the people; and in a little time
commotions would be the result—He was far from
thinking the large States could subsist of themselves
any more than the small; an avulsion would involve
the whole in ruin, and he was determined to pursue
such a scheme of Government as would secure us
agst. such a calamity.

Mr. Strong was for the com̃itment; and hoped
the mode of constituting both branches would
be referred. If they should be established on
different principles, contentions would prevail, and
there would never be a concurrence in necessary
measures.

Docr. Williamson. If we do not concede on both
sides, our business must soon be at an end. He approved
of the com̃itment, supposing that as the Come.
wd. be a smaller body, a compromise would be pursued
with more coolness.

Mr. Wilson objected to the Committee, because it
would decide according to that very rule of voting
which was opposed on one side. Experience in
Congs. had also proved the inutility of Committees
consisting of members from each State.

Mr. Lansing wd. not oppose the commitment, though
expecting little advantage from it.

Mr. Madison opposed the Com̃itment. He had
rarely seen any other effect than delay from
such Committees in Congs. Any scheme of compromise
that could be proposed in the Committee

might as easily be proposed in the House; and
the report of the Committee where it contained
merely the opinion of the Come. would neither
shorten the discussion, nor influence the decision of
the House.

Mr. Gerry was for the commitmt. Something must
be done, or we shall disappoint not only America,
but the whole world. He suggested a consideration
of the State we should be thrown into by the failure
of the Union. We should be without an Umpire to
decide controversies and must be at the mercy of
events. What too is to become of our treaties—
what of our foreign debts, what of our domestic?
We must make concessions on both sides. Without
these the Constitutions of the several States would
never have been formed.

On the question "for com̃iting," generally:
Massts. ay. Cont. ay. N. Y. ay. N J. no. P. ay.
Del.no. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo.
ay.

On the question for com̃iting it "to a member
from each State,"

Massts. ay. Cont. ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. no.
Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo.
ay.

The Com̃ittee elected by ballot, were Mr. Gerry,
Mr. Elseworth, Mr. Yates, Mr. Patterson, Dr. Franklin,
Mr. Bedford, Mr. Martin, Mr. Mason, Mr. Davy, Mr.
Rutlidge, Mr. Baldwin.

That time might be given to the Com̃ittee, and to
such as chose to attend to the celebrations on the

anniversary of Independence, the Convention adjourned
till Thursday.[118]