University of Virginia Library

Friday, July 13. In Convention.

It being moved to postpone the clause in the Report
of the Committee of Eleven as to the originating
of money bills in the first branch, in order to take up
the following—"that in the 2d. branch each State
shall have an equal voice,"

Mr. Gerry, moved to add as an amendment, to the
last clause agreed to by the House, "that from the
first meeting of the Legislature of the U. S. till a census
shall be taken all monies to be raised for supplying
the public Treasury by direct taxation shall be
assessed on the inhabitants of the several States
according to the number of their Representatives
respectively in the 1st. branch." He said this would
be as just before as after the Census; according
to the general principle that taxation & Representation
ought to go together.

Mr. Williamson feared that N. Hamshire will have
reason to complain. 3 members were allotted to her
as a liberal allowance, for this reason among others,
that she might not suppose any advantage to have
been taken of her absence. As she was still absent,
and had no opportunity of deciding whether she
would chuse to retain the number on the condition,
of her being taxed in proportion to it, he thought
the number ought to be reduced from three to two,
before the question was taken on Mr. G's motion.

Mr. Read could not approve of the proposition. He
had observed he said in the Committee a backwardness
in some of the members from the large States,
to take their full proportion of Representatives. He
did not then see the motive. He now suspects it
was to avoid their due share of taxation. He had no
objection to a just & accurate adjustment of Representation
& taxation to each other.

Mr. Govr. Morris & Mr. Madison answered that
the charge itself involved an acquittal; since notwithstanding
the augmentation of the number of
members allotted to Massts. & Va. the motion for proportioning
the burdens thereto was made by a member
from the former State & was approved by Mr.
M. from the latter who was on the Come.. Mr. Govr.
Morris said that he thought Pa. had her due share in
8 members; and he could not in candor ask for
more. Mr. M. said that having always conceived
that the difference of interest in the U. States lay not
between the large & small, but the N. & Southn.
States, and finding that the number of members
allotted to the N. States was greatly superior, he
should have preferred, an addition of two members
to the S. States, to wit one to N. & 1 to S. Carla.
rather than of one member to Virga. He liked the
present motion, because it tended to moderate the
views both of the opponents & advocates for rating
very high, the negroes.

Mr. Elseworth hoped the proposition would be
withdrawn. It entered too much into detail. The
general principle was already sufficiently settled.

As fractions can not be regarded in apportioning the
N°. of representatives, the rule will be unjust, until an
actual census shall be made. After that taxation
may be precisely proportioned according to the principle
established, to the number of inhabitants.

Mr. Wilson hoped the motion would not be withdrawn.
If it shd. it will be made from another
quarter. The rule will be as reasonable & just before,
as after a Census. As to fractional numbers,
the Census will not destroy, but ascertain them.
And they will have the same effect after as before
the Census; for as he understands the rule, it is to be
adjusted not to the number of inhabitants, but of
Representatives.

Mr. Sherman opposed the motion. He thought the
Legislature ought to be left at liberty: in which case
they would probably conform to the principles observed
by Congs.

Mr. Mason did not know that Virga. would be a loser
by the proposed regulation, but had some scruple as
to the justice of it. He doubted much whether the
conjectural rule which was to precede the Census,
would be as just, as it would be rendered by an
actual census.

Mr. Elseworth & Mr. Sherman moved to postpone
the motion of Mr Gerry. On ye. question, it passed
in the negative. Mass. no. Cont. ay. N. J. ay. Pa.
no. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no.
Geo. no.

Question on Mr. Gerry's motion, it passed in the
negative, the States being equally divided.

Mass. ay. Cont. no. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. no.
Md. no. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Mr. Gerry finding that the loss of the question had
proceeded from an objection with some, to the proposed
assessment of direct taxes on the inhabitants of
the States, which might restrain the Legislature to a
poll tax, moved his proposition again, but so varied
as to authorize the assessment on the States, which
leaves the mode to the Legislature, viz "that from
the 1st. meeting of the Legislature of the U. S. untill a
census shall be taken, all monies for supplying the
public Treasury by direct taxation shall be raised
from the said several States according to the number
of their representatives respectively in the 1st.
branch."

On this varied question, it passed in the affirmative

Mas. ay. Cont. no. N. J. no. pa. divd Del. no.
Md. no. Va. ay N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On the motion of Mr. Randolph, the vote of Saturday
last authorizing the Legislre. to adjust from time
to time, the representation upon the principles of
wealth & numbers of inhabitants, was reconsidered
by common consent in order to strike out "Wealth"
and adjust the resolution to that requiring periodical
revisions, according to the number of whites & three
fifths of the blacks: the motion was in the words
following:—"But as the present situation of the
States may probably alter in the number of their inhabitants,
that the Legislature of the U. S. be authorized
from time to time to apportion the number

of representatives; and in case any of the States
shall hereafter be divided or any two or more States
united or new States created within the limits of
the U. S. the Legislature of U. S. shall possess authority
to regulate the number of Representatives in
any of the foregoing cases, upon the principle of
their number of inhabitants; according to the provisions
hereafter mentioned."

Mr. Govr. Morris opposed the alteration as leaving
still incoherence. If Negroes were to be viewed as
inhabitants, and the revision was to proceed on the
principle of numbers of inhabts. they ought to be added
in their entire number, and not in the proportion of
3/5. If as property, the word wealth was right, and
striking it out would produce the very inconsistency
which it was meant to get rid of.—The train of business
& the late turn which it had taken, had led him
he said, into deep meditation on it, and He wd. candidly
state the result. A distinction had been set up
& urged, between the Nn. and Southn. States. He
had hitherto considered this doctrine as heretical.
He still thought the distinction groundless. He sees
however that it is persisted in, and the Southn. Gentlemen
will not be satisfied unless they see the way
open to their gaining a majority in the public Councils.
The consequence of such a transfer of power
from the maritime to the interior & landed interest
will he foresees be such an oppression of commerce
that he shall be obliged to vote for ye. vicious principle
of equality in the 2d. branch in order to provide
some defence for the N. States agst. it. But to come

more to the point; either this distinction is fictitious
or real; if fictitious let it be dismissed & let us proceed
with due confidence. If it be real, instead of
attempting to blend incompatible things, let us at
once take a friendly leave of each other. There can
be no end of demands for security if every particular
interest is to be entitled to it. The Eastern States
may claim it for their fishery, and for other objects,
as the Southn. States claim it for their peculiar objects.
In this struggle between the two ends of the
Union, what part ought the middle States in point of
policy to take: to join their Eastern brethren according
to his ideas. If the Southn. States get the
power into their hands, and be joined as they will be
with the interior Country, they will inevitably bring
on a war with Spain for the Mississippi. This language
is already held. The interior Country having
no property nor interest exposed on the sea, will be
little affected by such a war. He wished to know
what security, the Northn. & middle States will have
agst. this danger. It has been said that N. C. S. C.,
and Georgia only will in a little time have a majority
of the people of America. They must in that case
include the great interior Country, and every thing
was to be apprehended from their getting the power
into their hands.

Mr. Butler. The security the Southn. States want
is that their negroes may not be taken from them,
which some gentlemen within or without doors, have
a very good mind to do. It was not supposed that
N. C. S. C. & Geo. would have more people than all

the other States, but many more relatively to the
other States than they now have. The people &
strength of America are evidently bearing Southwardly
& S. westwdly..

Mr. Wilson. If a general declaration would satisfy
any gentleman he had no indisposition to declare
his sentiments. Conceiving that all men wherever
placed have equal rights and are equally entitled
to confidence, he viewed without apprehension the
period when a few States should contain the superior
number of people. The majority of people wherever
found ought in all questions to govern the minority.
If the interior Country should acquire this majority,
it will not only have the right, but will avail itself of
it whether we will or no. This jealousy misled the
policy of G. Britain with regard to America. The
fatal maxims espoused by her were that the Colonies
were growing too fast, and that their growth must be
stinted in time. What were the consequences?,
first, enmity on our part, then actual separation.
Like consequences will result on the part of the interior
settlements, if like jealousy & policy be pursued
on ours. Further, if numbers be not a proper
rule, why is not some better rule pointed out. No
one has yet ventured to attempt it. Congs. have
never been able to discover a better. No State as
far as he had heard, had suggested any other. In
1783, after elaborate discussion of a measure of
wealth all were satisfied then as they are now that
the rule of numbers, does not differ much from the
combined rule of numbers & wealth. Again he

could not agree that property was the sole or primary
object of Govt. & society. The cultivation &
improvement of the human mind was the most noble
object. With respect to this object, as well as to
other personal rights, numbers were surely the natural
& precise measure of Representation. And
with respect to property, they could not vary much
from the precise measure. In no point of view however
could the establishmt. of numbers as the rule of
representation in the 1st. branch vary his opinion as
to the impropriety of letting a vicious principle into
the 2d. branch.—On the Question to strike out Wealth,
& to make the change as moved by Mr. Randolph, it
passed in the affirmative.

Mas. ay. Cont. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Del divd.
Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Mr. Reed moved to insert after the word "divided,"
"or enlarged by addition of territory" which was
agreed to nem con. (his object probably was to provide
for such cases as an enlargemt. of Delaware by
annexing to it the Peninsula on the East side of the
Chesapeak.)

Adjourned.