The writings of James Madison, comprising his public papers and his private correspondence, including numerous letters and documents now for the first time printed. |
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Thursday July 5th. in Convention |
 | The writings of James Madison, |  |
Thursday July 5th. in Convention
Mr. Gerry delivered in from the Committee appointed
on Monday last the following Report.
"The Committee to whom was referred the 8th.
Resol. of the Report from the Committee of the
Whole House, and so much of the 7th. as has not been
subsequent propositions be recommended to the
Convention on condition that both shall be generally
adopted. I. that in the 1st. branch of the Legislature
each of the States now in the Union shall be allowed
1 member for every 40,000 inhabitants of the description
reported in the 7th. Resolution of the Come.
of the whole House: that each State not containing
that number shall be allowed 1 member: that all
bills for raising or appropriating money, and for
fixing the salaries of the officers of the Governt. of the
U. States shall originate in the 1st. branch of the
Legislature, and shall not be altered or amended by
the 2d. branch; and that no money shall be drawn
from the public Treasury but in pursuance of appropriations
to be originated in the 1st. branch.
"II. That in the 2d. branch each State shall have an
equal vote."[119]
Mr. Ghoram observed that as the report consisted
of propositions mutually conditional he wished to
which the conditions were estimated.
Mr. Gerry. The Committee were of different
opinions as well as the Deputations from which the
Come. were taken, and agreed to the Report merely
in order that some ground of accommodation might
be proposed. Those opposed to the equality of
votes have only assented conditionally; and if the
other side do not generally agree will not be under
any obligation to support the Report.
Mr. Wilson thought the Committee had exceeded
their powers.
Mr. Martin was for taking the question on the
whole report.
Mr. Wilson was for a division of the question;
otherwise it wd. be a leap in the dark.
Mr. Madison could not regard the privilege of originating
money bills as any concession on the side of
the small States. Experience proved that it had no
effect. If seven States in the upper branch wished
a bill to be originated, they might surely find some
member from some of the same States in the lower
branch who would originate it. The restriction as
to amendments was of as little consequence. Amendments
could be handed privately by the Senate to
members in the other house. Bills could be negatived
that they might be sent up in the desired shape.
If the Senate should yield to the obstinacy of the 1st.
branch the use of that body as a check would be lost.
If the 1st. branch should yield to that of the Senate,
the privilege would be nugatory. Experience had
similar regulation that it was a source of frequent
& obstinate altercations. These considerations had
produced a rejection of a like motion on a former
occasion when judged by its own merits. It could
not therefore be deemed any concession on the
present, and left in force all the objections which had
prevailed agst. allowing each State an equal voice.
He conceived that the Convention was reduced to
the alternative of either departing from justice in
order to conciliate the smaller States, and the minority
of the people of the U. S. or of displeasing
these by justly gratifying the larger States and the
majority of the people. He could not himself hesitate
as to the option he ought to make. The Convention
with justice & the majority of the people on
their side, had nothing to fear. With injustice and
the minority on their side they had every thing to
fear. It was in vain to purchase concord in the
Convention on terms which would perpetuate discord
among their Constituents. The Convention
ought to pursue a plan which would bear the test of
examination, which would be espoused & supported
by the enlightened and impartial part of America, &
which they could themselves vindicate and urge.
It should be considered that altho' at first many may
judge of the system recom̃ended, by their opinion of
the Convention, yet finally all will judge of the Convention
by the System. The merits of the System
alone can finally & effectually obtain the public
suffrage. He was not apprehensive that the people
to a Govt. founded on just principles, and promising
them substantial protection. He could not
suspect that Delaware would brave the consequences
of seeking her fortunes apart from the other States,
rather than submit to such a Govt.; much less could
he suspect that she would pursue the rash policy of
courting foreign support, which the warmth of one
of her representatives (Mr. Bedford) had suggested,
or if she shd., that any foreign nation wd. be so rash as
to hearken to the overture. As little could he suspect
that the people of N. Jersey notwithstanding
the decided tone of the gentlemen from that State,
would choose rather to stand on their own legs, and
bid defiance to events, than to acquiesce under an
establishment founded on principles the justice of
which they could not dispute, and absolutely necessary
to redeem them from the exactions levied on
them by the com̃erce of the neighbouring States.
A review of other States would prove that there was
as little reason to apprehend an inflexible opposition
elsewhere. Harmony in the Convention was no
doubt much to be desired. Satisfaction to all the
States, in the first instance still more so. But if
the principal States comprehending a majority of the
people of the U. S. should concur in a just & judicious
plan, he had the firmest hopes, that all the other
States would by degrees accede to it.[120]
Mr. Butler said he could not let down his idea of
the people, of America so far as to believe they would
from mere respect to the Convention adopt a plan
evidently unjust. He did not consider the privilege
concerning money bills as of any consequence. He
urged that the 2d. branch ought to represent the
States according to their property.
Mr. Govr. Morris, thought the form as well as the
matter of the Report objectionable. It seemed in
the first place to render amendments impracticable.
In the next place, it seemed to involve a pledge to
agree to the 2d. part if the 1st. shd. be agreed to. He
conceived the whole aspect of it to be wrong. He
came here as a Representative of America; he flattered
himself he came here in some degree as a Representative
of the whole human race; for the whole
human race will be affected by the proceedings of
this Convention. He wished gentlemen to extend
their views beyond the present moment of time; beyond
the narrow limits of place from which they
derive their political origin. If he were to believe
some things which he had heard, he should suppose
that we were assembled to truck and bargain for our
particular States. He can not descend to think that
any gentlemen are really actuated by these views.
We must look forward to the effects of what we do.
These alone ought to guide us. Much has been said
of the sentiments of the people. They were unknown.
They could not be known. All that we can
infer is that if the plan we recommend be reasonable
& right; all Who have reasonable minds and sound
been said by some gentlemen. Let us suppose that
the larger States shall agree; and that the smaller
refuse; and let us trace the consequences. The opponents
of the system in the smaller States will no
doubt make a party, and a noise for a time, but
the ties of interest, of kindred & of common habits
which connect them with other States will be too
strong to be easily broken. In N. Jersey particularly
he was sure a great many would follow the sentiments
of Pena. & N. York. This Country must be
united. If persuasion does not unite it, the sword
will. He begged that this consideration might have
its due weight. The scenes of horror attending
Civil commotion cannot be described, and the conclusion
of them will be worse than the term of their
continuance. The stronger party will then make
traytors of the weaker; and the Gallows & Halter
will finish the work of the sword. How far foreign
powers would be ready to take part in the confusions
he would not say. Threats that they will be invited
have it seems been thrown out. He drew the melancholy
picture of foreign intrusions as exhibited in the
History of Germany, & urged it as a standing lesson
to other nations. He trusted that the Gentlemen
who may have hazarded such expressions, did not
entertain them till they reached their own lips. But
returning to the Report he could not think it in any
respect calculated for the Public good. As the 2d.
branch is now constituted, there will be constant
disputes & appeals to the States which will undermine
the 1st. branch. Suppose that the delegates from
Massts. & Rho I. in the Upper House disagree, and
that the former are outvoted. What Results? they
will immediately declare that their State will not
abide by the decision, and make such representations
as will produce that effect. The same may
happen as to Virga. & other States. Of what avail
then will be what is on paper. State attachments,
and State importance have been the bane of this
Country. We can not annihilate; but we may perhaps
take out the teeth of the serpents. He wished
our ideas to be enlarged to the true interest of man,
instead of being circumscribed within the narrow
compass of a particular Spot. And after all how little
can be the motive yielded by selfishness for such
a policy. Who can say whether he himself, much
less whether his children, will the next year be an
inhabitant of this or that State.
Mr. Bedford. He found that what he had said as
to the small States being taken by the hand, had
been misunderstood; and he rose to explain. He did
not mean that the small States would court the aid
& interposition of foreign powers. He meant that
they would not consider the federal compact as
dissolved untill it should be so by the Acts of the
large States. In this case The consequences of the
breach of faith on their part, and the readiness
of the small States to fulfill their engagements, would
be that foreign Nations having demands on this
Country would find it their interest to take the small
This was what he meant. But no man can foresee
to what extremities the small States may be driven
by oppression. He observed also in apology that
some allowance ought to be made for the habits of
his profession in which warmth was natural & sometimes
necessary. But is there not an apology in
what was said by (Mr. Govr. Morris) that the sword
is to unite: by Mr. Ghorum that Delaware must be
annexed to Penna. and N. Jersey divided between
Pena. and N. York. To hear such language without
emotion, would be to renounce the feelings of
a man and the duty of a Citizen—As to the propositions
of the Committee, the lesser States have
thought it necessary to have a security somewhere.
This has been thought necessary for the Executive
Magistrate of the proposed Govt. who has a
sort of negative on the laws; and is it not of more
importance that the States should be protected,
than that the Executive branch of the Govt. shd. be
protected. In order to obtain this, the smaller
States have conceded as to the constitution of the
first branch, and as to money bills. If they be
not gratified by correspondent concessions as to
the 2d. branch is it to be supposed they will ever
accede to the plan; and what will be the consequence
if nothing should be done? The condition
of the U. States requires that something should
be immediately done. It will be better that a defective
plan should be adopted, than that none
should be recommended. He saw no reason why
or 20 years hence.
Mr. Elseworth said he had not attended the proceedings
of the Committee, but was ready to accede
to the compromise they had reported. Some compromise
was necessary; and he saw none more convenient
or reasonable.
Mr. Williamson hoped that the expressions of individuals
would not be taken for the sense of their
colleagues, much less of their States which was not
& could not be known. He hoped also that the
meaning of those expressions would not be misconstrued
or exaggerated. He did not conceive that
(Mr. Govr. Morris) meant that the sword ought to be
drawn agst. the smaller States. He only pointed out
the probable consequences of anarchy in the U. S.
A similar exposition ought to be given of the expressions
of (Mr. Ghorum). He was ready to hear the
Report discussed; but thought the propositions contained
in it, the most objectionable of any he had yet
heard.
Mr. Patterson said that he had when the Report
was agreed to in the Come. reserved to himself the
right of freely discussing it. He acknowledged that
the warmth complained of was improper; but he
thought the Sword & the Gallows little calculated to
produce conviction. He complained of the manner
in which Mr. M and Mr. Govr. Morris had treated the
small States.
Mr. Gerry. Tho' he had assented to the Report in
the Committee, he had very material objections to
were neither the same Nation nor different Nations.
We ought not therefore to pursue the one or the
other of these ideas too closely. If no compromise
should take place what will be the consequence. A
secession he foresaw would take place; for some
gentlemen seem decided on it: two different plans
will be proposed; and the result no man could foresee.
If we do not come to some agreement among
ourselves some foreign sword will probably do the
work for us.
Mr. Mason. The Report was meant not as specific
propositions to be adopted; but merely as a general
ground of accommodation. There must be some
accommodation on this point, or we shall make little
further progress in the work. Accommodation was
the object of the House in the appointment of the
Committee; and of the Committee in the Report they
had made. And however liable the Report might be
to objections, he thought it preferable to an appeal to
the world by the different sides, as had been talked of
by some Gentlemen. It could not be more inconvenient
to any gentleman to remain absent from his
private affairs, than it was for him; but he would
bury his bones in this City rather than expose his
Country to the Consequences of a dissolution of the
Convention without any thing being done.
The 1st. proposition in the report for fixing the
representation in the 1st. branch, "one member for
every 40,000 inhabitants," being taken up.
Mr. Govr. Morris objected to that scale of apportionment.
the estimate as well as the number of inhabitants.
Life & liberty were generally said to be of more value
than property. An accurate view of the matter
would nevertheless prove that property was the
main object of Society. The Savage State was more
favorable to liberty than the Civilized; and sufficiently
so to life. It was preferred by all men
who had not acquired a taste for property; it was
only renounced for the sake of property which could
only be secured by the restraints of regular Government.
These ideas might appear to some new, but
they were nevertheless just. If property then was
the main object of Govt. certainly it ought to be one
measure of the influence due to those who were to
be affected by the Governt. He looked forward also
to that range of New States which wd. soon be formed
in the West. He thought the rule of representation
ought to be so fixed as to secure to the Atlantic
States a prevalence in the National Councils. The
new States will know less of the public interest than
these, will have an interest in many respects different,
in particular will be little scrupulous of involving the
Community in wars the burdens & operations of
which would fall chiefly on the maritime States.
Provision ought therefore to be made to prevent the
maritime States from being hereafter outvoted by
them. He thought this might be easily done by
irrevocably fixing the number of representatives
which the Atlantic States should respectively have,
and the number which each new State will have.
previously know the conditions on which they were
to possess their lands. It would be politic as it
would recom̃end the plan to the present as well as
future interest of the States which must decide the
fate of it.
Mr. Rutlidge. The gentleman last up had spoken
some of his sentiments precisely. Property was certainly
the principal object of Society. If numbers
should be made the rule of representation, the Atlantic
States will be subjected to the Western.
He moved that the first proposition in the report be
postponed in order to take up the following viz "that
the suffrages of the several States be regulated and
proportioned according to the sums to be paid towards
the general revenue by the inhabitants of each State
respectively: that an apportionment of suffrages,
according to the ratio aforesaid shall be made and
regulated at the end of—years from the 1st. meeting
of the Legislature of the U.S., and at the end of
every—years but that for the present, and until
the period above mentioned, the suffrages shall be
for N. Hampshire—for Massachts.—&c.
Col. Mason said the case of new States was not unnoticed
in the Committee; but it was thought and
he was himself decidedly of opinion that if they made
a part of the Union, they ought to be subject to
no unfavorable discriminations. Obvious considerations
required it.
Mr. Randolph concurred with Col. Mason.
On Question on Mr. Rutlidges motion,
Masts. no. Cont. no. N.Y. no. N. J. no. Pa. no.
Del. no. Maryd. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. ay.
Geo. not on floor.
This report was founded on a motion in the Com̃itte made by
Dr. Franklin. It was barely acquiesced in by the members from the
States opposed to an equity of votes in the 2d. branch and was evidently
considered by the members on the other side, as a gaining of their
point. A motion was made by Mr. Sherman. He acted in the place
of Mr. Elseworth who was kept away by indisposition, in the Committee
to the following effect "that each State should have an equal vote in
the 2d. branch; provided that no decision therein should prevail unless
the majority of States concurring should also comprise a majority of
the inhabitants of the U. States." This motion was not much deliberated
on nor approved in the Committee. A similar proviso had been
proposed in the debates on the articles of Confederation in 1777, to the
articles giving certain powers to "nine States." See Journals of Congs.
for 1777, p. 462.—Madison Note.
| The writings of James Madison, | |