University of Virginia Library

Monday July 9th. in Convention.

Mr. Daniel Carroll, from Maryland took his seat.

Mr. Govr. Morris delivered a report from the Come. of
5 members to whom was committed the clause in the
Report of the Come. consisting of a member from each
State, stating the proper ratio of Representatives in
the 1st. branch, to be as 1 to every 40,000 inhabitants,
as follows viz

"The Committee to whom was referred the 1st.
clause of the 1st. proposition reported from the grand
Committee, beg leave to report:

I. that in the 1st. meeting of the Legislature the
1st branch thereof consist of 56. members of which
Number N. Hampshire shall have 2, Massts. 7, R. Id.
1, Cont. 4, N. Y. 5, N. J. 3, Pa. 8, Del. 1, Md. 4, Va. 9,
N. C. 5, S. C. 5, Geo. 2.

II. But as the present situation of the States may
probably alter as well in point of wealth as in the

number of their inhabitants, that the Legislature be
authorized from time to time to augment ye. number
of Representatives. And in case any of the
States shall hereafter be divided, or any two or more
States united, or any new States created within the
limits of the United States, the Legislature shall
possess authority to regulate the number of Representatives
in any of the foregoing cases, upon the
principles of their wealth and number of inhabitants."

Mr. Sherman wished to know on what principles or
calculations the Report was founded. It did not
appear to correspond with any rule of numbers, or
of any requisition hitherto adopted by Congs.

Mr. Gorham. Some provision of this sort was
necessary in the outset. The number of blacks &
whites with some regard to supposed wealth was the
general guide. Fractions could not be observed.
The Legislre. is to make alterations from time to
time as justice & propriety may require. Two
objections prevailed agst. the rate of 1 member for
every 40,000 inhts. The 1st. was that the Representation
would soon be too numerous: the 2d. that the
Westn. States who may have a different interest,
might if admitted on that principle by degrees,
outvote the Atlantic. Both these objections are removed.
The number will be small in the first instance
and may be continued so. And the Atlantic
States having ye. Govt. in their own hands, may take
care of their own interest, by dealing out the right of
Representation in safe proportions to the Western
States. These were the views of the Committee.

Mr. L. Martin wished to know whether the Come.
were guided in the ratio, by the wealth or number
of inhabitants, of the States, or by both; noting its
variations from former apportionments by Congs.

Mr. Govr. Morris & Mr. Rutlidge moved to postpone
the 1st. paragraph relating to the number of
members to be allowed each State in the first instance,
and to take up the 2d. paragraph authorizing
the Legisrlre. to alter the number from time to time
according to wealth & inhabitants. The motion was
agreed to nem. con.

On Question on the 2d. paragh. taken without any
debate

Massts. ay. Cont. ay. N. Y. no. N. J. no. Pa. ay.
Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay.
Geo. ay.

Mr. Sherman moved to refer the 1st. part apportioning
the Representatives, to a Comme. of a member
from each State.

Mr. Govr. Morris seconded the motion; observing
that this was the only case in which such committees
were useful.

Mr. Williamson thought it would be necessary to
return to the rule of numbers, but that the Western
States stood on different footing. If their property
shall be rated as high as that of the Atlantic States,
then their representation ought to hold a like proportion.
Otherwise if their property was not to be
equally rated.

Mr. Govr. Morris. The Report is little more than a
guess. Wealth was not altogether disregarded by

the Come. Where it was apparently in favor of one
State, whose nos. were superior to the numbers of
another, by a fraction only, a member extraordinary
was allowed to the former: and so vice
versa. The Committee meant little more than to
bring the matter to a point for the consideration of
the House.

Mr. Reed asked why Georgia was allowed 2 members,
when her number of inhabitants had stood
below that of Delaware.

Mr. Govr. Morris. Such is the rapidity of the population
of that State, that before the plan takes effect,
it will probably be entitled to 2 Representatives.

Mr. Randolph, disliked the Report of the Come.
but had been unwilling to object to it. He was
apprehensive that as the number was not be changed,
till the Natl. Legislature should please, a pretext
would never be wanting to postpone alterations, and
keep the power in the hands of those possessed of it.
He was in favor of the Commitmt. to a member from
each State.

Mr. Patterson considered the proposed estimate
for the future according to the combined rules of
numbers and wealth, as too vague. For this reason
N. Jersey was agst. it. He could regard negroes
slaves in no light but as property. They are no free
agents, have no personal liberty, no faculty of
acquiring property, but on the contrary are themselves
property, & like other property entirely at
the will of the Master. Has a man in Virga. a number
of votes in proportion to the number of his slaves?

And if negroes are not represented in the States to
which they belong, why should they be represented
in the Genl. Govt. What is the true principle of
Representation? It is an expedient by which an
assembly of certain individls. chosen by the people
is substituted in place of the inconvenient meeting of
the people themselves. If such a meeting of the people
was actually to take place, would the slaves vote?
They would not. Why then shd. they be represented.
He was also agst. such an indirect encouragemt. of
the slave trade; observing that Congs. in their act
relating to the change of the 8 art: of Confedn. had
been ashamed to use the term "slaves" & had substituted
a description.

Mr. Madison reminded Mr. Patterson that his doctrine
of Representation which was in its principle the
genuine one, must forever silence the pretensions of
the small States to an equality of votes with the
large ones. They ought to vote in the same proportion
in which their Citizens would do, if the people
of all the States were collectively met. He suggested
as a proper ground of compromise, that in the first
branch the States should be represented according
to their number of free inhabitants; And in the 2d.
which had for one of its primary objects the guardianship
of property, according to the whole number,
including slaves.

Mr. Butler urged warmly the justice & necessity
of regarding wealth in the apportionment of Representation.

Mr. King had always expected that as the Southern

States are the richest, they would not league themselves
with the Northn. unless some respect were paid
to their superior wealth. If the latter expect those
preferential distinctions in Commerce, & other advantages
which they will derive from the connexion
they must not expect to receive them without
allowing some advantages in return. Eleven out of
13 of the States had agreed to consider Slaves in
the apportionment of taxation; and taxation and
Representation ought to go together.

On the question for committing the first paragraph
of the Report to a member from each State

Massts. ay. Cont. ay. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. Pa. ay.
Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no.
Geo. ay.

The Come. appointed were Mr. King, Mr. Sherman,
Mr. Yates, Mr. Brearly, Mr. Govr. Morris, Mr.
Reed, Mr. Carrol, Mr. Madison, Mr. Williamson, Mr. Rutlidge,
Mr. Houston.

Adjd.