University of Virginia Library

MONDAY JANY. 13

Report on the valuation of land was referred to a Grand
Committee.

A motion was made by Mr. Peters, 2ded. by Mr. Madison,
" that a comite. be appointed to consider the expediency of making
further applications for loans in Europe, & to confer with the
Superint of Finance on the subject." In support of this motion
Mr. P. observed that notwithstanding the uncertainty of success
the risk of appearing unreasonable in our demands on France,
and the general objections agst. indebting the U. S. to foreign
nations, the crisis of our affairs demanded the experiment; that
money must if possible be procured for the army and there was
ground to expect that the Ct. of France wd. be influenced by an
apprehension that in case of her failure & of a pacification G. B.
might embrace the opportunity of substituting her favors. Mr.
Madison added that it was expedient to make the trial because
if it failed, our situation cd. not be made worse, that it would be
prudent in France & therefore it might be expected of her, to
afford the U. S. such supplies as would enable them to disband
their army in tranquillity, lest some internal convulsions might
follow external peace, the issue of which ought not to be hazarded,
that as the affections & gratitude of this Country as well
as its separation from G. B. were her objects in the Revolution,
it would also be incumbent on her to let the army be disbanded
under the impression of deriving their rewards through her friendship
to their Country; since their temper on their dispersion
through the several States and being mingled in the public
councils, would much affect the general temper towards France;
and that if the pay of the army could be converted into a consolidated
debt bearing interest, the requisitions on the States for
the principal might be reduced to requisitions for the interest,
and by that means a favorable revolution so far introduced into
our finances.

The Motion was opposed by Mr. Dyer because it was improper
to augment our foreign debts, & would appear extravagant to
France. Several others assented to it with reluctance, and
several others expressed serious scruples as honest men agst. levying

contributions on the friendship or fears of France or others,
whilst the unwillingness of the States to invest Congress with
permanent funds rendered a repayment so precarious. The
motion was agreed to, and the Comittee chosen—Mr. Gorham, Mr.
Peters, Mr. Izard.

In the evening according to appointment the Grand Committee
gave an audience to the deputies of the army,[27] viz:
Genl. McDougal & Cols. Ogden & Brooks. The first introduced
the subject by acknowledging the attention manifested to the
representations of the army by the appt. of so large a Com̃ittee;
his observations turned chiefly on the 3 chief topics of the
Memorial, namely an immediate advance of pay, adequate provision
for the residue, and half-pay.—On the first he insisted on
the absolute necessity of the measure to soothe the discontents
both of the officers & soldiers, painted their sufferings & services,
their successive hopes & disappointments throughout the whole
war, in very high-colored expressions, and signified that if a
disappointment were now repeated the most serious consequences
were to be apprehended; that nothing less than the actual distresses
of the army would have induced at this crisis so solemn

an application to their country; but yt. the seeming approach of
peace, and the fear of being still more neglected when the necessity
of their services should be over, strongly urged the necessity
of it. His two colleagues followed him with a recital of various
incidents & circumstances tending to evince the actual distresses
of the army, the irritable state in which the deputies left them,
and the necessity of the consoling influence of an immediate
advance of pay. Colonel Ogden said he wished not indeed, to
return to the army if he was to be the messenger of disappointment
to them. The deputies were asked 1st. what particular steps
they supposed would be taken by the army in case no pay cd. be
immediately advanced; to which they answered that it was impossible
to say precisely; that although the Sergeants & some of
the most intelligent privates had been often observed in sequestered
consultations, yet it was not known that any premeditated plan
had been formed; that there was sufficient reason to dread that
at least a mutiny would ensue, and the rather as the temper of
the officers at least those of inferior grades, would with less vigor
than heretofore struggle agst. it. They remarked on this occasion,
that the situation of the officers was rendered extremely delicate
& had been sorely felt, when called upon to punish in soldiers a
breach of engagements to the public which had been preceded
by uniform & flagrant breaches by the latter of its engagements
to the former. General McDougal said that the army were verging
to that state which we are told will make a wise man mad, and
Col: Brooks said that his apprehensions were drawn from the
circumstance that the temper of the army was such that they did
not reason or deliberate cooly on consequences & therefore a disappointment
might throw them blindly into extremities. They
observed that the irritations of the army had resulted in part
from the distinctions made between the Civil & military lists the
former regularly receiving their salaries, and the latter as regularly
left unpaid. They mentioned in particular that the members of
the Legislatures would never agree to an adjournment with[out]
paying themselves fully for their services. In answer to this
remark it was observed that the Civil officers on the average did
not derive from their appointments more than the means of their
subsistence; and that the military altho not furnished with their
pay properly so called were in fact furnished with the same
necessaries.

On the 2d. point to wit "adequate provision for the general
arrears due to them," the deputies animadverted with surprise,
and even indignation on the repugnance of the States, some of them
at least, to establish a federal revenue for discharging the federal
engagements. They supposed that the ease not to say affluence
with wch. the people at large lived sufficiently indicated resources
far beyond the actual exertions, and that if a proper application
of these resources was omitted by the Country & the army
thereby exposed to unnecessary sufferings, it must natural[ly] be
expected that the patience of the latter wd. have its limits. As
the deputies were sensible that the general disposition of Congress
strongly favored this object, they were less diffuse on it.
Genl. McDougal made a remark wch. may deserve the greater attention
as he stepped from the tenor of his discourse to introduce
it, and delivered it with peculiar emphasis. He said that the
most intelligent & considerate part of the army were deeply
affected at the debility and defects in the federal Govt., and the
unwillingness of the States to cement & invigorate it; as in case
of its dissolution, the benefits expected from the Revolution wd.
be greatly impaired, and as in particular, the contests which might
ensue amg. the States would be sure to embroil the officers which
respectively belong to them.

On the 3d. point to wit "half-pay for life," they expressed equal
dissatisfaction at the States which opposed it observing that it
formed a part of the wages stipulated to them by Congress & was
but a reasonable provision for the remnant of their lives which
had been freely exposed in the defence of their Country, and
would be incompatible with a return to occupations & professions
for which military habits of 7 years standing unfitted them. They
complained that this part of their reward had been industriously
and artfully stigmatized in many States with the name of pension,
altho' it was as reasonable that those who had lent their blood
and services to the public sd. receive an annuity thereon, as those
who had lent their money; and that the officers whom new arrangements
had from time to time excluded, actually labored under
the opprobrium of pensioners, with the additional mortification of

not receiving a shilling of the emolums. They referred however
to their Memorial to show that they were authorized & ready to
commute their half-pay for any equivalent & less exceptionable
provision.

After the departure of the Deputies, the Grand Committee appointed
a sub-committee, consisting of Mr. Hamilton, Mr. Madison,
& Mr. Rutledge to report arrangements, in concert with the
Superintendt. of Finance for their consideration.